james_nicoll: SF Diplomat bids farewell to the Commonwealth of Fantasy

james_nicoll (

james_nicoll) wrote,
@ 2007-09-04 15:29:00

SF Diplomat bids farewell to the Commonwealth of Fantasy
The Commonwealth of Fantasy and why I'm no longer a part of it.

Nicked from both Andrew Wheeler and slapfights, which I think is a first.

(57 comments) - (Post a new comment)

	catbear 2007-09-04 03:45 pm UTC (link)
	"You guys are a bunch of big meanies! I'm going HOME!" (Reply to this) (Thread)

	james_nicoll 2007-09-04 04:09 pm UTC (link)
	I think I've said things that were as well received as Mr. McCalmont's essay on fantasy (I might have written very similar comments about fantasy, in fact) so I can understand where he's coming from. If he's not enjoying the discussion and he's not being paid to take part in it, why should he persist? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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rysmiel, 2007-09-04 04:12 pm UTC (Expand)

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dd_b, 2007-09-04 04:18 pm UTC (Expand)

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lovecraftienne, 2007-09-04 04:17 pm UTC (Expand)

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catbear, 2007-09-04 04:29 pm UTC (Expand)

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j_larson, 2007-09-04 04:42 pm UTC (Expand)

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catbear, 2007-09-04 05:02 pm UTC (Expand)

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zillah975, 2007-09-04 05:20 pm UTC (Expand)

OT aside -

kayshapero, 2007-09-05 08:17 am UTC (Expand)

Re: OT aside -

zillah975, 2007-09-05 01:04 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

zillah975, 2007-09-04 05:22 pm UTC (Expand)

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machineplay, 2007-09-04 05:39 pm UTC (Expand)

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sfdiplomat, 2007-09-05 08:31 am UTC (Expand)

	wordweaverlynn 2007-09-04 04:14 pm UTC (link)
	Sounds to me like he never actually got into the commonwealth of fantasy at all. In fact, he sounds like one of those tourists who complains that those foreigners speak a funny language and don't know how to make a decent American meal. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	viktor_haag 2007-09-04 05:40 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, I'm pretty sure that the commonwealth of fantasy is rather well stocked with American meals. As for decent, well, that's a point... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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wordweaverlynn, 2007-09-04 06:40 pm UTC (Expand)

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viktor_haag, 2007-09-04 09:01 pm UTC (Expand)

	rosefox 2007-09-04 06:46 pm UTC (link)
	They're just pretending not to know what you're saying. They understand English fine if you speak it loudly and slowly enough. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	elynne 2007-09-04 04:17 pm UTC (link)
	If you want to jump the ship, jump the damn ship already. Don't make excuses about how the crew is a bunch of bloodthirsty pirates when you know damn well that the boat you're swimming towards is crewed by the exact same class and type of people wearing different-colored hats. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	dd_b 2007-09-04 04:17 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, that's pretty much what I jus said over there. (Reply to this) (Parent)

logrusboy
2007-09-04 05:28 pm UTC (link)

Indeed. I generally find that people who really mean to jump ship simply jump the damn ship. No muss; no fuss. Things like this generally come from people who really want to be begged to stay aboard. But one must, I suppose, be open to the possibility of aberration.

And if he finds that SF fen are uniformly polite, educated, open-minded, and conduct themselves as civilized beings, I suspect he has actually stumbled into a fantasy world.... (N.B.: I absolutely didn't say all SF fen are rude, ill-educated, close-minded, smelly, argumentative, etc. But that sort do exist, and one rarely has to expend much effort to find a few.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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kayshapero, 2007-09-05 08:14 am UTC (Expand)

faithhopetricks
2007-09-04 05:13 pm UTC (link)

One of the most interesting developments to emerge with the growth of online culture has been the expansion of the idea of a commonwealth of knowledge beyond academia and towards the general public

//sputters

(With the growth of the INTERNET? Dear Lord.)

Academics, despite frequently being in competition frequently wed themselves to the idea of serving their wider intellectual community, putting information and ideas out there for people to share in the hope of someone returning the favour

//laughs helplessly

This idea is what allows people to produce PhD's based on taking someone else's ideas and modifying them or expanding them to new areas without having to pay royalties

ROYALTIES ON AN IDEA? Good God.

....the most charitable thing I can think of is this person can't possibly be as new to the Internet as he seems to be. Jesus, if you put up a post on LiveJournal or your blog or wherever declaring that tapioca pudding sucks, you will get flamed by tapiocaphiles.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	tapiocaphiles james_nicoll 2007-09-04 05:15 pm UTC (link)
	I find it hard to believe that there are people who like a desert indistinguishable from frog eggs. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: tapiocaphiles -

cofax7, 2007-09-04 05:16 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: tapiocaphiles -

logrusboy, 2007-09-04 05:17 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: tapiocaphiles -

faithhopetricks, 2007-09-04 05:24 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: tapiocaphiles -

james_nicoll, 2007-09-04 05:27 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: tapiocaphiles -

faithhopetricks, 2007-09-04 05:31 pm UTC (Expand)

Bingo -

james_nicoll, 2007-09-04 05:34 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Bingo -

faithhopetricks, 2007-09-04 05:40 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: tapiocaphiles -

mjlayman, 2007-09-04 11:08 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: tapiocaphiles -

mayakda, 2007-09-04 09:27 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: tapiocaphiles -

commodorified, 2007-09-04 10:10 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: tapiocaphiles -

cristalia, 2007-09-04 10:39 pm UTC (Expand)

	cofax7 2007-09-04 05:16 pm UTC (link)
	Ohfer. Welcome to the internets, dude. If you're going to make sweeping derogatory generalizations about something people care about, they're going to bitch at you. And about you. Suck it up. Does he honestly think he can avoid this phenomenon by only talking about SF? Hah! (Reply to this) (Thread)

faithhopetricks
2007-09-04 05:25 pm UTC (link)

If you're going to make sweeping derogatory generalizations about something people care about, they're going to bitch at you. And about you. Suck it up.

//snorts Oh, well said.

Does he honestly think he can avoid this phenomenon by only talking about SF? Hah!

YEAH, particularly since science fiction isn't as completely separated off from fantasy as he seems to think....

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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cofax7, 2007-09-04 06:10 pm UTC (Expand)

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faithhopetricks, 2007-09-04 06:36 pm UTC (Expand)

	zillah975 2007-09-04 05:19 pm UTC (link)
	Huh. I won't review any books, I won't review any films, I won't review any TV and I won't share any ideas I might have whether they're controversial or not. Well, you know. HOORAY. I would suggest he not let the door hit his ass on the way out. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vito_excalibur 2007-09-04 08:53 pm UTC (link)
	It's like the Platonic ideal of a flounce. It's beautiful. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	nancylebov 2007-09-04 05:40 pm UTC (link)
	I'm distracted from the central emotional and territorial issues by a thought about ASoIaF. That series is supporting authoritarianism, but not the way SFDiplomat suggest. If there were ever a bunch of dysfunctional violent nitwits who need to be ruled by a firm hand, it's Martin's nobles. Maybe the place should be handed to Saddam Hussein's ghost. (Reply to this)

dsgood
2007-09-04 05:44 pm UTC (link)

"...the Fantasy’s long history of outselling SF."
http://www.sfdiplomat.net/sf_diplomat/2007/02/the_aesthetics_.html

That's where I stop taking him at all seriously. That history goes back about thirty years (publication date of Sword of Shannara. It was preceded by fifty or more years in which science fiction outsold fantasy by so wide a margin that some people believe there was no fantasy published before LOTR's US publication. SFWA took in fantasy writers from the beginning, but didn't see a need to mention sf's poor relative in its name (or, I believe, in its bylaws.)

(Reply to this)

	wordweaverlynn 2007-09-04 06:42 pm UTC (link)
	I've swiped the central question ("is fantasy inherently authoritarian?") and run with it. My LJ is exploding with interesting comments. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	elynne 2007-09-04 11:03 pm UTC (link)
	Oooh! toddles over for a peek (Reply to this) (Parent)

	burger_eater 2007-09-04 06:45 pm UTC (link)
	... legions of passive, sheep-like fans. I realise that not all fantasy fans are closed-minded tribal cretins.... Like the fellow linked to above, I am astonished that fantasy readers find him objectionable. Whatever could be the reason? (Reply to this)

A question

kgbooklog
2007-09-04 07:51 pm UTC (link)

I was going to ask this over there, but after seeing his argument about why feudalism wasn't authoritarian, I decided I didn't want to read another word of his. And anyway, I trust James' opinions much more.

What are some good non-authoritarian science fiction novels? My impression (from an admittedly small sample) is that science fiction tends to be more authoritarian than fantasy. (I already know about Joel Shepherd, and highly recommend his Crossover.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	Re: A question james_nicoll 2007-09-04 08:30 pm UTC (link)
	There's the rather elderly Wanting of Levine (Michael Halberstam), which is about the election of the first Jewish President in 1988. No cabels, no telefactored candidates, Levine gets stuck with VP candidate who makes Quayle look gifted and the opposing candidate gets some of the better bits in the book. Weak ending, though. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: A question
(Anonymous)
2007-09-04 09:01 pm UTC (link)

"What are some good non-authoritarian science fiction novels?"

I'd say there are hundreds, but let me stick with one author for now.

Norman Spinrad has some fairly non-authoritarian works. Even "The Men in the Jungle" which features a serial dictator as the protagonist (tossed out of one state, he works to take over another) could be classed as such. Of the two authoritarian states portrayed, one is an outright scam, the other quite evil. Bad enough that even our hero is shocked. Looking back on it, the main flaw is that the hero is too likable, but maybe the fact that he does not learn much is the message for us. My guess is that he is not destined for a long life.

"Bug Jack Barron" is in part about perverting the election process. But there still are and will be elections, even if people elect Jack for his very brief term. As Jack is quite confident they will.

From what I recall of it, "Russian Spring" should qualify as well.

William Hyde

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: A question -

kgbooklog, 2007-09-04 10:12 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: A question - (Anonymous), 2007-09-04 10:50 pm UTC (Expand)

	Re: A question abidemi 2007-09-05 02:49 am UTC (link)
	Kim Stanley Robinson often goes into quite a bit of detail (as is his wont) about the construction of decision-making democratic governing/scientific bodies. The construction of one is an integral part of the Mars series. A long section in Forty Signs of Rain is a love letter to the group-based peer review and grant-awarding processes of the NSF. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: A question -

wordweaverlynn, 2007-09-05 08:01 am UTC (Expand)

Re: A question -

martin_wisse, 2007-09-05 10:20 am UTC (Expand)

Also...

commodorified
2007-09-04 10:16 pm UTC (link)

Given the impression I have just gained of his understanding of the word "diplomat", I'm not inclined to think he can be trusted to do anything with a six-syllable monster like "authoritarian" except chew on the corners and try to stuff it down the potty.

(It is only fair of me to note that I have never read any GRRM. This is strictly freestyle bitchery, here, and has been neither commissioned nor authorised by any cabal, tribe, or horde.)

(Reply to this)

	kayshapero 2007-09-05 08:10 am UTC (link)
	Cue violins. (Reply to this)

(57 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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