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OK, sometimes 'they're both from the same country, they must be the same person' *is* valid
james_nicoll
I think this has reached the point where nothing new on any side is going to get said and I would like to reclaim 'recent comments' for other subjects so I will be freezing this when I get home tonight

This might affect the author's rebranding except as far as I can tell editors already knew and didn't care.

Does anyone remember what, if any, repercussions there were from Blish revealing himself to be noted critical gadfly William Aethling, Jr.?

I have no idea what Nick means by shenanigans but this bit?
Unfortunately it means no Hugos or Campbells for her.

The odds of her winning a Not a Hugo Campbell Award were always slim because authors get exactly two rolls of the dice for that one but there's the other Not a Hugo Campbell for the novel John W. Campbell would have been least likely to buy while alive and I can assure you if Campbell ever bought a story from a woman from Asia, I am completely unaware of it.

The Hugo, who knows? There was a lot of cane-shaking at Rowling for sullying the grand traditions of our genre with books the general public actually wanted to read and yet she got a rocket.

[A note: due to problems with spam, I have to personally unscreen all anonymous comments and since it is Thanksgiving I cannot promise to be superdiligent about doing that for the next couple of days]

Also posted at Dreamwidth, where there are comment count unavailable comment(s); comment here or there.

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As one of the women involved, I cringe at the "at worst sideways" thing.

She has actively engaged in identity policing not only with me but publicly with others--it would not take you much work to find her calling various and sundry Asian women "not Asian enough." (You can do that yourself; it makes me sick to do it for you.) So she has redefined us as "white on the inside" (it makes me sick to say that, but here we are) and then called it "punching up" to hit us. She gets to redefine my very identity and then slap me for it--and get praise!

I am pretty sure she has done that with queer women ("not gay enough") too, but not to me, so that's secondhand.

Since someone has asked, I suppose I will sign this Video Games Anon (since that makes me feel less gross than my primary identifying feature with the dogs).
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Thank you. (I mean, I'd've been good if you decided to sign with My Handle Is Random Improbable Thing, RTI for short. It's just that this way I feel less like I'm blundering around in the dark and bumping into people.)

Also, I have absolutely no doubt that RH practiced and practices many forms of identity policing, undermining, insulting, and harassing behavior.

My question is, then, OK? (It's not a very well formed question.) Does this mean she shouldn't be published? Or is it that she shouldn't have the social sanction of the SF Power Elite?
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

It would be a phenomenal start if they were not considered charming little quirks, amusing pecadillos, justifiable rage, or, God help me, Swiftian satire. (No one has yet explained to me what is satirical about the dog thing.)

The fact that she seems to be treated as Speaking Truth to Power when she in fact lies, threatens, smears... and actively hides it when it inconveniences her, is a real insult to those of us--her peers, not her mythic Punching Up targets--who are suffering from her bouts of omnidirectional rage.

I just want people to stop actively looking the other way when it makes them uncomfortable. That's all.

Video Game Anon
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Gotcha. And am in complete agreement.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

No one in this post, at least, is saying she oughtn't be published -- I can't speak for what's being said elsewhere, since I'm not in on it. As far as assholes having a successful writing career in SF/F, she's neither first nor worst.

As far as this post goes, the discussion about her went roughly: I don't know anything about her -> Stories about her are overblown/she's actually a nice person/everything bad is in the past -> Hang on, I was there, she was actually terrible about X, Y, Z and hasn't shown any signs of changing -> That's not true -> Yes it is.

Let me explain why I'm here talking. I can't speak for anyone else. I don't have a dog in this hunt, beyond a general dislike for seeing victims silenced and belittled. Pro SFF isn't my community. I'm not a writer/reviewer/publisher, I don't want to be one, and I'm not personal friends with anyone who is -- though I'm happy to buy and read the results of all y'all's work. My community is fic-based fandom and related areas, where Winterfox has left a trail of destruction for a solid decade, at least. This is a courtesy visit from one part of geekdom to another, letting you guys know what I've seen.

It doesn't make a difference to me one way or another if she's published. Her writing doesn't look like it's to my taste. Cindy Pon's isn't, either. But saying that the damage she's done to people in my community is no big deal is something I've got to challenge.

And, as a woman, I've got a problem with the idea that rape threats are just some sophisticated humor that I don't get. That's more about some of the people commenting on Winterfox than about Winterfox herself, though.

Edited at 2014-10-12 04:36 am (UTC)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

It has not escaped me that the people who seem to find the sexual and violent threats (or, excuse me, "wishes") most funny, and who seem most inclined to excuse them as satire that my poor little brown girl brain can't grasp, are mostly (not entirely) white men.

Video Game Anon
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Yeah. I noticed that.

The thing about Winterfox is, I don't think she thinks they're funny. I think she knows exactly what she's doing. I'm sorry she did it to you.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Thanks, that does mean a lot.

I think she means it too.

I do appreciate the support enormously.

Video Games Anon
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Bowing briefly back in to say it was the furthest thing from my mind to imply that rape jokes are funny, and I'm sorry for participating in giving that impression. There's clearly a lot of context I was and am unaware of, and while my original snarky responses to the anonymous comments were well meant, their effect was minimizing, and I should have known better. Bowing back out.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

For what it's worth (if you see this) I do sincerely appreciate this. There's obviously a lot of context missing in this whole discussion.

Video Games Anon
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

I did see it, thank you, and I agree about the lack of context. I've never been the target of that kind of rhetoric, and I think it speaks volumes that RH has now rolled a lot of it back without comment, when replacing her blog entries with a note explaining why would have been simple. For what it's worth, my sympathies, and regret for participating in that annoying show-me-the-money commentary that happens at times like these.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

I think she knows exactly what she's doing.

I had her friended on LJ for a while. She definitely knew what she was doing.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Speaking as no kind of power in SF-book-fandom, and sort of a hanger-on in some media fandoms, gotcha. I'm not so much a fan of rape threats and/or other forms of sexualized threats, either. They're kind of the opposite of fun.

She's left a trail of destruction in some parts of SF-book-fandom, too -- viz, the aforementioned [Bad username: http://50books-poc.livejournal.com/].
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Almost all of her comments and reviews there have been deleted. This is the behaviour of the person who's getting lauded for being scathing and honest. If she's so honest, and her actions are so defensible, why is she disappearing everything?
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

It's a clear pattern, yes. (If it were, "I have to scrub the internetz of my fandom life because I am being published," that'd be one thing. Buuuut it's not.)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

How about "because she's getting stalked and threatened and people are trying to ruin her career"?

You can't say that some people are allowed to be anonymous because they feel threatened, but that other people have to preserve a record or else they're terrible people. You can't say that some people are ALLOWED to be afraid and other people aren't. (I said something that sounded like that earlier in this thread and it sucked and i'm sorry.)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: She's not a horrible person in real life.

But what she's deleting doesn't have anything to do with her real name, her published works, or anything that would assist in stalking her. It's all history of abuse on her side, the evidence that makes her look bad. I don't see how the one is linked to the other.

ETA: As people have mentioned, she's also got a long history of deleting evidence of her misbehavior, since well before her real name was linked to her pseuds.

Edited at 2014-10-12 05:45 am (UTC)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: She's not a horrible person in real life.

Meh. Sorry for the subject line change. I must've angered LJ.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

I'm sure it'd be too much to suggest that possibly she feels remorse and would like to remove stuff that may still be hurting people's feelings from easy access. Or that she's just sad and scared and wants everything to go away. Since obviously she's an amoral monster of some sort and has no actual human feelings, right?

(I don't know why she's removed the stuff she's removed, in particular. I do know that she is herself terrified and miserable right now, for various reasons related to her being outed.)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

Oh poor thing. She wanted all the enjoyment of a new ID and none of the repercussions of what she'd actually said! Let's just delete that at leisure, except when people had documented that it actually existed, right?

I'm sorry, having seen her in action for quite a long time, I'm not buying this whole "terrified and miserable" thing. I'm buying "people finally put things together and figured out that my bubbly makeup-obsessed persona was a mask", but not much of anything else. Am I really supposed to be sympathetic here?
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

I'm sure it'd be too much to suggest that possibly she feels remorse

It's possible. She could suggest that very easily herself by saying that she's sorry, and saying it to the people she's wronged rather than only where her friends can see.

It's also possible, as you say, that she could be sad and scared and not want this attention. That's something a lot of people have felt because of her . That doesn't mean that it's okay for someone to stalk or threaten her, or that I'm happy if she's scared. But it does mean that a lot of people, like me, aren't going to look kindly on her deleting the evidence of what she did.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

This is one of those situations where she be both scared and miserable, and remorseful, and I can sympathise with her for that, because this situation sucks...

But she can also have a pattern of removing problematic material from the internet.

The situation, it is complicated.

Edited at 2014-10-12 05:56 am (UTC)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

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Before you feel too bad about her, bear in mind that she has had ample time to apologize to me for the rape threats, and she never has. I'm sure she feels betrayed and awful and terrified and miserable, but, well, how do you think I felt?

If you are on close enough terms with her to know how she is feeling, you may ask her why. Admittedly, it would not surprise me too much if she could not remember who she even made the threats to. That may be telling to you, as you seem like enough of a sensitive person to at least remember who you made threats to.

I may seem obsessed. I think it is fair to say that when someone who you would expect to be an ally threatens you with something that is absurdly degrading and threatening and scary that you do not forget it. And I would assume the same of her. I would assume that she would remember the worst thing she might have said in threatening another Asian woman… Unless it is not the worst thing she said to another Asian woman.

In which case you may want to think about that.

Video Games Anon
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

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If she is remorseful and wants to apologize, she can say so herself. It doesn't do anyone any good for some friend to go around hinting that maybe she's remorseful, especially when that hint is being used to try to silence discussion. It just looks like you're working the crowd.

Strange so many people are speaking for her now, when she's never had trouble speaking for herself in the past.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

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Re: She's not a horrible person in real life.

(Anonymous)
I am extremely curious whether those of us who are her victims, whether of rape threats or being told to kill ourselves, both of which I know happened more than once, are expected to cover it up, hide it, not mention it, or otherwise keep silent about it, in order to "not ruin her career."

I would assume not. But, the assumption in a lot of these threads seems to be that the people who are "ruining her career," are not the people who she victimized. Which is often not the case. When am I supposed to keep my mouth shut? When is it wrong of me to tell my story, and when can I do it, and when do I need to worry about my abuser's career?

Video Games Anon
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)

the irony is (Anonymous) Expand
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