james_nicoll ([info]james_nicoll) wrote,
@ 2009-05-13 12:06:00
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Lost Worlds using actual geography
A convenient plateau playing the role of refugium for an implausible assortment of otherwise extinct species won't work but I think I have read someone else's idea that does and forgot about reading it. It almost certainly derails human history, though.



The change is that instead of Australia, Antarctica and South America being marsupial heaven [1], the tri-continent area is inhabited by a surviving population of archosaurs and not just birds and crocodilians. Obviously this would be a small subset of the archosaurs that were around before 65 million BP but 65 million years is a long enough time for lots of interesting radiation and specialization. Before the Great American Interchange, the archosaurs in South America would develop in splendid isolation and the Wallace Gap would allow the archosaurs in Australia to do the same. The ones in Antarctica would be screwed for the most part once it got cold down there.

While it would be interesting to think about humans encountering what I will call for the sake of convenience honkers, once the Great American Interchange gets going, species that spread to North America may then spread to Asia and ever farther. It would be pretty easy for this to prevent humans from ever evolving and very difficult to get anything resembling our history. No Linnaeus expounding on the similarities between 12-ton neo-dinosaurian bipedal apex predators and the common chicken, sad to say.

I seem to recall Harrison used the exact opposite of this: hominids evolved in the New World for some reason while dinosaurs kept the Old.

1: Yeah, placental mammals were there too.


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[info]james_nicoll
2009-05-13 04:31 pm UTC (link)
I think I'm thinking of more overtly dinosaurian animals than in that old thread on shwi but I can't find it on google to check.

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[info]james_nicoll
2009-05-13 04:55 pm UTC (link)
Birdlandia? Was that it?

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 05:10 pm UTC (link)
I can't find it either. There was a critter called surviviraptor or whatnot as the basal member of the new dino-clade.

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[info]james_nicoll
2009-05-13 05:13 pm UTC (link)
God damn google and its attitude towards newsgroups.

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 05:20 pm UTC (link)
Usenet is dying anyways. It almost feels like a model for a civilization decline or how people would face the end of the universe when its collapsing in on itself: slowly fading into a few refugia, while the rest falls into decay and nothingness.

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[info]james_nicoll
2009-05-13 05:30 pm UTC (link)
Did Aquila abandon Roman Britain? Did Orgetorix submit to the Romans? Did Yamamoto surrender to the Americans?

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[info]cultureulterior
2009-05-13 11:17 pm UTC (link)
Usenet will never die.

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"survivarapter",
[info]gohover
2009-05-13 11:58 pm UTC (link)
And this other thread talks about a creature called a "survivarapter", which sounds like what Anzhalyumitethe was thinking of. The ol' "or" in "raptor" get replaced with "er" to subvert the search engines trick!
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/c33d217ffa4f3079/8c643f4f2acdc468?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&q=raptors+soc.history.what-if#8c643f4f2acdc468

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[info]gohover
2009-05-13 11:42 pm UTC (link)
James, is this it?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/8ab4c9853c0f1775/8b6883f4b1fd15d8?hl=en&q=soc.history.what-if+dinosaurs+raptors&lnk=ol&
Scroll down to January 4, 1997 3:00AM

I don't want to dissuade you from requesting a damnation, because, goodness knows, things aren't damned nearly enough, but what's wrong with google?
I think going to groups.google.com and then searching for things on specific usenet groups or across usenet groups is rather nice, just as good as dejanews (if I recall it correctly), and much better than the old days. On the other hand, maybe don't tell me - I don't want to know how bad we have it.

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[info]gohover
2009-05-13 11:43 pm UTC (link)
Ooops, that's Jan 3rd, not Jan 4th.

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[info]drelmo
2009-05-13 04:52 pm UTC (link)
I read, a few years ago, a novel in which exactly this happened, except that there was no archosaur-to-Old-World interchange. When the Old World started colonizing the New, they ran into natives with semi-domesticated dinos.

ISTR the main story being about a Custer-like figure having an airship crash in the Sea of Grass and having to interact with the natives and their honkers while trying to get back home.

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[info]srallen
2009-05-13 05:03 pm UTC (link)
That'd be The Fallen Cloud Saga, which posited that some dinosaur species still survived and that the Gulf of Mexico stretched into Texas, but other than that most things were the same. I mean, the Custer-like figure was actually the son of President George Armstrong Custer getting lost amongst the Cheyenne.

I finished it but couldn't stomach myself to try the sequels.

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[info]drelmo
2009-05-13 05:05 pm UTC (link)
Bingo. Thank you.

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[info]srogerscat
2009-05-13 09:05 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. Had potential but, when the author went on about how the US Army's weapons were not up to the job of dealing with the honkers I started thinking:

1. Volley fire with Sharps Big Fifties.

2. Hotchkiss guns (looks like a 37mm Gatling gun).

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 05:01 pm UTC (link)
You may not get dinosaurian critters. It depends on which archosaurs survive. The dinos out competed - or outlasted - their relatives save the extended croc family. Birds have tried to recapitulate the uber theropod a few times, but crocs haven't tried going down the dinosaurian route.

You could have sebecosuchians writ large:

http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2007/03/move_over_theropoda_sebecosuch.php

You could also have nonmammalian therapsids running around. A regular hodge-podge of Paleozoic stragglers, Mesozoic survivors, and Cenozoic imports.

For some reason 'Roos chased by theropods is a cool imagine.

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[info]james_nicoll
2009-05-13 05:12 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for steering me to such comments as

If synapsids are crap, why do ziphodont crocs try so hard to become ersatz gorgonopsians?

and

I just thought proper synapsid self-hatred would include non-mammalian synapsids as well

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[info]dd_b
2009-05-13 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Those are very funny sentences, even without knowing the particular families / species / whatever being referenced.

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 05:17 pm UTC (link)
Gorgons:

http://thedragonstales.blogspot.com/2008/02/once-upon-permian-gazes-of-fear.html

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[info]dd_b
2009-05-13 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Cool. Thanks!

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Johannes has always been a good bit of paleo wit.

Let's explore your world a bit.

Let's say that Africa is still hosed by the KT in the same manner as OTL. I want OBSERVERS, damnit.

Have any particular critters you like to pull across the Great Splat?

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[info]james_nicoll
2009-05-13 05:20 pm UTC (link)
I hadn't thought through it that far yet (and I have to do a report so I am logging off for a while).

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 05:21 pm UTC (link)
damnit. Hurry up and come back.

I've not had a great SHWIer alt-zoo TL in a while. The XenoPermian stuff I have been working on has been going slooooooooooooooowly.

Curse the day that you have to do more than just spew verbage. It always takes soooo much longer.

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 05:29 pm UTC (link)
Xeno Permian Stuff:

http://thedragonstales.blogspot.com/2009/05/welcome-to-xenopermian.html

http://whenpigsfly-returns.blogspot.com/2009/03/proactive-dicynodonts.html

http://whenpigsfly-returns.blogspot.com/2009/04/further-studies-into-alt-permian.html

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[info]james_nicoll
2009-05-13 08:10 pm UTC (link)
I guess the first place to start is trying to guess what had the best chance of making past the KT boom. What lived in the bits of South America, Australia and Antarctica that were least affected by the impact?

http://www.scotese.com/K/t.htm

seems to suggest we consider what was in Australia and the bits of Antarctica closest to Australia.

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 08:51 pm UTC (link)
http://thedragonstales.blogspot.com/2009/04/kt-extinction-day-sky-fell.html

That may help first off.

In Gondwana, we're likely to see theropods and sauropods. Not as many orinthschians.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l06042835181052l/

http://dml.cmnh.org/1995Sep/msg00913.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbioge.ubbcluj.ro%2F~bonac%2Fpdf%2F2002%2FVremir.pdf&ei=UjALSouRFpHitQOa69HzAg&usg=AFQjCNEXtBb9zkVsZVyBRahnK1QL2CyDvQ

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/12/081217-new-raptor-missions.html?source=rss



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[info]james_nicoll
2009-05-14 02:15 am UTC (link)
Theropods are cool.

So, uh, were sauropods warm-blooded? And do we think dinosaurs had color vision? As rich as bird color vision?

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The best guess is yes
(Anonymous)
2009-05-14 02:59 am UTC (link)
though we really don't know, obviously.

Tetrachromism seems to be very basal in birds, and crocodilians have a version of it too.

Doug M.

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Re: The best guess is yes
[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-14 03:35 am UTC (link)
If crocs had a version, then they all likely did. Wow.

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-14 03:13 am UTC (link)
Most likely survivor is something less than 50 kg mass, and, truthfully, something the size of a large-ish bird. It'll probably either be a theropod or if there are still some present at the KT boundary, a small heteorodontosaur.

Sauropods were either warm blooded or homeotherms: their thermal mass and digestion kept them on a near constant temperature rather than their entire metabolism. I doubt they'd make it through the KT even if they rolled sixes.

Theropods, at least maniraptors, are very, VERY likely to be have color vision like a bird. They were damned near birds with just arms instead of wings...and they were almost wings at that.

It's hard to say for much else. We don't have too many extant sauropods or orinthischians to compare against unlike theropods.

Some speculation:

We have a viable miniraptor population survive in Antozica. Ditto a hypsilophodont population and a heterodonosaur population. They ar all very, very small and there's not much to eat. The miniraptors will probably do the best chasing down the surviving mammals, birds, and orinthiscians.

It'll be 10+ million years before they start growing in size. Their Paleocene is gonna be as sucky as ours: Liliputian terrestrial, hurrah! There will be some diversification of forms in he mean time, but nothing too exciting. The land crocs are still gonna suck for everyone.

The Eocene would be where it gets interesting. It also depends on what else survived on Antozica. So, what did, James?

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[info]johnreiher
2009-05-14 04:34 am UTC (link)
Well, the asteroid/comet impact theory is far from certain. There's sufficient evidence that what ever made the Chicxulub crater didn't kill off the dinosaurs by itself. It was more likely the coup de grace, but not the smoking gun. Paleontologist Bob Bakker has rightly pointed out that if the asteroid scenario is correct, then all the amphibians would have died out from the acid rain. We wouldn't have any frogs, turtles, and salamanders. Whenever I hear a description of the asteroid impact, I say to myself, "how the hell did anything survive?" And now there is evidence that the asteroid didn't wipe out life in the area of impact:

http://blog.jcmnaturalhistory.com/?p=782

So do we know what killed off the dinosaurs. No, not yet, and we probably never will.

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-14 05:53 am UTC (link)
*sighs*

Bakker holds that it was probably a virus that did the deed. huh. Wonder why no one is holding that scenario up besides him.

Keller. Oy. She's one of the last hold outs of the vulcanists. Even Courtillot has conceded that the dinosaurs were toasted by the 'roid. The fact is that Keller and her merry band are about the only ones that are interpreting the data she finds the way she does. When ever its time for grants to be renewed, you can find more press release work by her. Seriously, watch the funding cycles vs the timing of some new work or paper she's done. Without the net, she'd probably have been pushed back into her office alone by the mountains of papers that do contradict her work.

Her belief is that the world got toasted by the Deccan Traps...which doesnt fit. I've even written a bit on the subject:

A compare and contrast with the Permian Extinction vs the KT:

http://thedragonstales.blogspot.com/2007/10/stop-dreaming-kt-is-not-pt.html

A description of the KT Extinction itself:

http://thedragonstales.blogspot.com/2009/04/kt-extinction-day-sky-fell.html

(oh, I owe one of the commenters a full post reply on there. It's more than a flippant comment that is deserves, so it's getting put on the pile...)

Oh, and the acid rain? It as an idea as a component of the 'roid impact. A component that has been largely discarded: as Bakker points out, the brown water critters ought to have been far more impacted than they were /and/ there's no geochemical data that would support it. Acid on that scale would have left a trace.

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[info]elynne
2009-05-13 05:19 pm UTC (link)
Evolve saurian-based sentients rather than mammilian? Or - don't, that's what I want to do. Or do, make it a whole new genre, that way I can read other people's ideas on how it happens.

Are you thinking of something like West of Eden, incidentally? Though from what (little) I remember of it, there wasn't much about how the saurian-based sentients evolved, or how humans managed to evolve "alongside" them.

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(Anonymous)
2009-05-13 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Didn't evolve alongside them - humans evolved in the Americas, dinosaur-people in the Old World, and for some reason I can't remember the dinosauroids failed to colonize the americas (don't like boats, perhaps?)

Of course, the notion of the human race evolving as OTL with a divergence dating back to before there was such a thing as monkeys, let alone apes, is painfully absurd - you would think he'd be clever enough to avoid describing the humans too closely, and only sneak in at the very end the fact the hero has a prehensile tail...but no.

Bruce

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[info]keithmm
2009-05-13 05:33 pm UTC (link)
Real history helps you out here. The South American fauna keep running into obstacles on the way north: the dry section in Mesoamerica, and then the connection to Eurasia is inconveniently located where glaciers stalk the land. The honkers in South America near Panama would have been specialized for tropical forest climates, which could have delayed their northward movement. Note that the successful South American migrants north, like the porcupine, never made it past Alaska either.

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 05:47 pm UTC (link)
You mean New World Porcupines, right?

The Old World has their own.

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[info]apis_mellifera
2009-05-13 07:14 pm UTC (link)
Oh God, now I'm having flashbacks to a heated argument I observed on a mailing list I help moderate about how the North American robin was degenerate and how dare the people filming Mary Poppins on a California soundstage in the 1960's use a North American robin instead of acquiring an English one from somewhere else.

It was like something out of the work of the Comte de Buffon brought to life.

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[info]anzhalyumitethe
2009-05-13 07:20 pm UTC (link)
looooooooool

I've been hanging with the paleo guys for too long...

sorry about that.

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[info]apis_mellifera
2009-05-13 07:23 pm UTC (link)
I think there was also a sub-argument about how Americans are stupid for calling maize corn when corn means grain.

At which point I wanted to point out that it was ENGLISH PEOPLE who started all the degenerate naming and word-using so they needed suck it up and deal.

This subject of this listserv is neither Disney films nor word usage.

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[info]keithmm
2009-05-13 09:31 pm UTC (link)
Yes. The New World porcupines are descendants of an Old World porcupine that rafted across to South America from Africa. Then they were stuck in SA until Panama emerged, then spread north. The Old World porcupines spread across southern Asia but didn't make the transition into the boreal forests that the North American porcupine did.

That's important because there's no porcupine on the Siberian side of the Bering Strait that you could point to and argue that competition from it prevented the North American porcupine from getting in. What stopped the porcupine was clearly climate.

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[info]drelmo
2009-05-13 09:59 pm UTC (link)
Linking Old World (Hystricidae) + New World (Erethizontidae) porcupines is polyphyletic, as far as the web says. Their common ancestor is also the common ancestor of mole rats, cane rats, cavies (including capybaras), and chincillas, among others, who make up the hystricognaths, with a Paleocene/Eocene split from the rest of Rodentia.

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The Harrison was...
[info]chrysostom476
2009-05-14 06:00 pm UTC (link)
...West of Eden et seq.

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