james_nicoll ([info]james_nicoll) wrote,
@ 2009-03-08 10:48:00
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[...] take arms against a sea of troubles/And by opposing end them
Greg Egan takes issue with many reviews of Incandescence but with Adam Roberts' review in particular


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[info]carloshasanax
2009-03-08 03:09 pm UTC (link)
These days there's often some ranting about “nerds” and “geeks” — words that belong in the same rubbish pile as “niggers” and “gooks”
Uh-huh. I remember the footage of police dogs being sicced on innocent engineering students in Pasadena, who were just trying to get a copy of Astounding from the local drugstore.

And who can forget those great words of Steven Wozniak, standing on the steps of the National Air and Space Museum. "Wow, there sure are a lot of us!"

I'm glad that Egan is standing up for himself after four hundred years of bewilderment from the general public. Say it loud! I like Turing's resolution of Hilbert's Entscheidungsproblem and I'm proud!

Back to Egan vs. Roberts. popcorn in the morning smells like victory!

PS Charlie, this is really why you should watch Heathers.

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[info]gohover
2009-03-08 04:22 pm UTC (link)
Teachers in American schools have become much more sensitive to the problems caused by bullying. While racism is much more evil than discriminating against geeks, in actual practice, both are cracked down upon just as harshly in many schools these days. You can quite fairly bring up police dogs, but they'll bring up Columbine and then argue that while there is no equivalence between the evils of institutional racism and bullying, they are vigorously trying to stamp out both in their classrooms. Also, from a high school teacher's point of view, both racism and discrimination against geeks have another thing in common: both can lead to students sitting on their hands and not participating in classroom discussions, for fear of either "acting white" or "acting like a geek". Finally, both can make a childhood unpleasant which can have long-term ramifications. And once again: saying that two things have something in common isn't to say that one is just as bad as the other.

PS As for Roberts vs Egan, Egan's comments made me want to read the book. If you separate out his aggravation with Roberts from the information about the book Egan provides, the informational part was kind of interesting, and it sounds to me like this information and advice should have been included in a delightfully geeky/nerdy appendix to the novel.

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(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-08 06:03 pm UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-08 06:49 pm UTC (Expand)
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(no subject) - [info]chaotic_nipple, 2009-03-08 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-08 08:42 pm UTC (Expand)
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(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-08 10:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]chaotic_nipple, 2009-03-08 10:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-08 11:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-03-09 03:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-09 04:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-03-09 05:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bpholden, 2009-03-08 10:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]chaotic_nipple, 2009-03-08 10:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-08 11:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bpholden, 2009-03-08 10:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gohover, 2009-03-08 11:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gohover, 2009-03-08 06:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zibblsnrt, 2009-03-08 06:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gohover, 2009-03-08 07:01 pm UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2009-03-09 02:21 pm UTC (link)
carloshasanax: I apologise for the genuine offence this passage caused you, and I've amended the essay to remove the comparison. While I honestly did not intend to imply that the harm caused by these terms was comparable, I accept that people could reach that conclusion, which is one that I certainly agree is offensive.

Greg Egan

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(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-09 06:10 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]jhetley
2009-03-08 03:17 pm UTC (link)
I think there's a general sense that replying to reviews can't end well.

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[info]autopope
2009-03-08 03:24 pm UTC (link)
Yup.

On the other hand? I can see exactly why Adam Roberts got up Greg Egan's nose so far that Greg had to sneeze.

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[info]james_nicoll
2009-03-08 03:28 pm UTC (link)
I don't think it necessarily has to end badly.

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(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2009-03-08 03:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jhetley, 2009-03-08 04:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wizwom, 2009-03-08 05:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]machineplay, 2009-03-09 01:06 am UTC (Expand)

[info]seawasp
2009-03-08 03:20 pm UTC (link)
You'd think Egan would know better.

I've occasionally replied to or commented on reviews, but I (a) prefer to comment on the positive ones, and (B) take the bad as more humorous than anything else. I mean, you can't really take them seriously or they give you indigestion.

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[info]james_nicoll
2009-03-08 03:31 pm UTC (link)
Were you around for the discussions of Teranesia?

I don't think it is entirely wrong to say Egan is not very enthusiastic about permitting errors to pass uncommented on, particularly if they involve his books, and he has a detectable amount of loyalty to his own models.

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[info]autopope
2009-03-08 03:21 pm UTC (link)
At risk of sticking my foot in it for the second time in one day, I'd like to observe that I find Adam Roberts' books unreadable -- because it seems to me that they follow the form of SF, while holding the substance of it in contempt. Everything's a fucking metaphor, and we'll pile metaphor on top of metaphor until the tottering tower proves to everybody how polished our literary style is. And anyone who writes SF as an exploration of -- horrors -- non-literary ideas is, well, quaint and old-fashioned. And he doesn't even do his research to get the settings right!

For example, "Yellow Blue Tibia" is beautifully written, but I still hit a throw-book-at-wall moment halfway through when I got to the point where Roberts is describing events in the Chernobyl B reactor hall on a certain day, and it becomes glaringly obvious that not only has he never even cracked open a book of photographs of a nuclear reactor, but he's describing a high level waste cooling pond instead of a gas-cooled graphite-core reactor.

It's laudable literary style, but it shows contempt for the material he's working with -- and worse, contempt for his readers. This isn't rocket science and doesn't require a visit to a nuclear reactor site: there are shelves of books of this stuff, with photographs, if he could only be bothered doing enough research to plaster a fig-leaf over his scientific nudity.

So yeah, I think I'm with Greg Egan on this one, although he unintentionally provides an great example of the unwisdom of engaging with critics. (Although, to be fair, I bounced a third of the way in to Incandescence: I need to go back to it some time, but it seemed to be taking Egan's previous didactic tendencies to an extreme that might be unpalatable to some.)

Edited at 2009-03-08 03:24 pm UTC

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[info]autopope
2009-03-08 03:31 pm UTC (link)
As a supplemental comment: I don't think it's helpful that we apply the same label to the genres that Adam Roberts and Greg Egan work in -- and turning one of them loose on the other is bound to end in tears.

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(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2009-03-08 03:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-08 03:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2009-03-08 04:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2009-03-08 06:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gohover, 2009-03-08 09:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gohover, 2009-03-08 09:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2009-03-08 03:50 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]james_nicoll
2009-03-08 03:33 pm UTC (link)
Although, to be fair, I bounced a third of the way in to Incandescence

I am baffled by this. The plot seemed straight-forward enough to me (I will admit large portions of my brain are doctrinaire Newtonian).

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(no subject) - [info]autopope, 2009-03-08 03:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wizwom, 2009-03-08 05:30 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]carloshasanax
2009-03-08 03:38 pm UTC (link)
Roberts is not as good a stylist as he thinks he is.

He's a Browning scholar, but Browning treated his source material with more respect than Roberts treats science, or science fiction for that matter. His SF criticism is a mess.

On the other hand, Egan has issues with the cultural establishment, tied into his strident belief system. And he's just not a very good writer.

Speaking as someone who reads the same scientific papers Egan does, I don't find his execution very readable. It's anti-didactic. His disdain for those people who don't care about the topic colors his exposition. A little like Bourbaki and diagrams.

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[info]james_nicoll
2009-03-08 03:43 pm UTC (link)
And he doesn't even do his research to get the settings right!

He did have someone vet Gradisil to avoid unfortunate errors. It didn't work but he did at least try.

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[info]jamiam
2009-03-08 04:11 pm UTC (link)
Wait, so how exactly are your issues Roberts' books relevant at all to his issues with Egan's book?

(I mean, I see your addendum to your comment there. But it still just sounds like maybe you've had a bad run-in with Roberts yourself, and want to take this opportunity complain about his differing literary values.)

Edited at 2009-03-08 04:15 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [info]autopope, 2009-03-08 04:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2009-03-08 04:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autopope, 2009-03-08 05:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jamiam, 2009-03-08 05:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wizwom, 2009-03-08 05:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ninebelow, 2009-03-08 05:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autopope, 2009-03-08 06:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ninebelow, 2009-03-09 08:55 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]andrewwheeler, 2009-03-09 04:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ninebelow, 2009-03-09 04:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autopope, 2009-03-09 09:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]martin_wisse, 2009-03-08 08:39 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]scentofviolets
2009-03-08 04:27 pm UTC (link)
You're not perhaps a subscriber to the Pre-Joycean Fellowship, are you :-) Fwiw, I didn't think that 'Salt' (the only thing I've read by him) was that bad. Not my preferred style, but nothing to run away from screaming either.

I speak as someone with Low Tastes, btw, - not just an Ace and Daw reader, but someone who prefers the Ace Doubles. Say the Derai/Winds of Gath release. The point being that sf as a genre doesn't need to make apologies to anybody at this late date, any more than Obama has to reach out to our Republicans by apologizing for 'liberal' ideas(and for approximately the same reasons.)

So let Mr. Roberts write his little reviews. Offhand, I don't think there's a significant readership that really much cares Mr. Adams has to say about something written by Greg Egan. Certainly it won't affect sales any.[1]



[1]Personal Disclaimer: I've got three or four of Egan's books in hardback. Not a fan, precisely, but someone who is willing to shell out a little moolah rather than wait for the trade paperback.

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(no subject) - [info]ninebelow, 2009-03-08 05:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Speaking as someone married to a "Dr." - [info]jamiam, 2009-03-08 06:45 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]wizwom
2009-03-08 05:40 pm UTC (link)
"This leaves me wondering if they've really never encountered a book before that benefits from being read with a pad of paper and a pen beside it"

Wow... I've never encountered a book which requires that. Not even Einstein's work on General Relativity.

I contend that Egan is only marginally sane, and his neuroses are showing.

Egan contends that his use of nonsense words is better than, say "heavyward," "lightward," "brightward" and "darkward" - and further, that complaining about the use of nonsense words is mean-spirited. Egan is a fool - use of nonsense words should always be very sparing - if you can, avoid it at all costs.

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[info]gohover
2009-03-08 05:48 pm UTC (link)
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Also, beware the frumious use of Nadsat in Clockwork Orange....

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(no subject) - [info]wizwom, 2009-03-09 03:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mrteufel, 2009-03-09 05:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-03-10 02:52 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]gohover
2009-03-08 06:07 pm UTC (link)
I haven't read Egan's book, but your point about "heavyward" sounds reasonable if that's really all there is to it. I was really just joshing you about possibly overgeneralizing.

Also, I'm reminded of the way Niven used the "East takes you out.." mnemonic in Integral Trees to make orbital mechanics more approachable. Having not read Egan's book, I don't know if something like would have helped (or even was needed).

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[info]jonquil
2009-03-08 07:24 pm UTC (link)
My parents' edition of War and Peace came with a detachable card that listed *all* the permutations of names by which each character might be known. ("Sasha" can be "Alexander Vladisovich" can be "Count Rugin" can be ..., depending on the speaker and social situation.)

If that card hadn't existed, a notepad would have been ideal. And, candidly, I'd probably have gotten further with Anathem if I'd made a detailed note of characters and their relationships and personalities starting from the beginning.

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(no subject) - [info]agent_mimi, 2009-03-09 01:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]soon_lee, 2009-03-09 01:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]coalescent, 2009-03-09 08:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]soon_lee, 2009-03-09 08:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jonquil, 2009-03-09 03:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wizwom, 2009-03-09 03:20 am UTC (Expand)

[info]tomscud
2009-03-09 03:14 am UTC (link)
Not nonsense, actually. Arabic. Bizarrely transliterated Arabic, to boot.

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(no subject) - [info]wizwom, 2009-03-09 03:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tomscud, 2009-03-09 03:58 am UTC (Expand)

[info]agrumer
2009-03-09 06:31 am UTC (link)
I contend that Egan is only marginally sane

That's a bit extreme, don't you think?

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(no subject) - [info]wizwom, 2009-03-09 04:05 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]burger_eater
2009-03-08 05:42 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. Before I click, I'm going to ask if this post should have had your new OSC tag on it.

Okay. Clicking away.

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[info]mindstalk
2009-03-08 05:58 pm UTC (link)
Oh no! Egan ends sentences with prepositions!

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[info]autopope
2009-03-08 06:39 pm UTC (link)
And this is wrong, how?

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(no subject) - [info]mindstalk, 2009-03-08 07:38 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]agrumer
2009-03-09 12:29 am UTC (link)
And see Egan sling an underhand accusation of anti-Arab bigotry at Roberts:
Roberts goes on to tell us how ugly he finds the choice of direction words; I don't expect someone with his limited cultural horizons to recognise the joke behind them, but the hundreds of millions of humans who would might raise an eyebrow at the claim of ugliness. (I've transliterated as "rarb" a word that is usually rendered "gharb", but you can imagine how Roberts would have gagged on that. And be prepared for some he-couldn't-possibly-have-meant-that moments if you Google "junub"; a more common transliteration is "janoub".)

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[info]carloshasanax
2009-03-09 03:54 am UTC (link)
"Hi! In my novel, I wrote 'south' as 'spermth'! In Arabic! Because I'm transgressive! Remember Cronulla!"

He must have been one humorless fundie. The labels change, but the dickishness remains the same.

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-03-09 04:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]agrumer, 2009-03-09 06:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-03-09 07:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]agrumer, 2009-03-09 08:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-03-09 10:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]martin_wisse, 2009-03-09 11:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-03-09 12:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]scentofviolets, 2009-03-10 03:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]martin_wisse, 2009-03-10 07:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-03-10 09:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]scentofviolets, 2009-03-10 02:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2009-03-10 02:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]scentofviolets, 2009-03-10 04:39 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]felila
2009-03-09 03:04 am UTC (link)
I managed to slog all the way through Incandescence, but it was a slog. Yes, it exercised the creaking sinews of my brain, but it wasn't FUN. Whereas reading Anathem, and seeing if I could match up those philosophies with RL philosophies/theories was fun. It was like solving a puzzle with just the right degree of difficulty. A challenge, but not frustrating.

Egan needs to think about how to write puzzle stories.


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[info]soon_lee
2009-03-09 08:32 am UTC (link)
Interesting.

My experience was inverse to yours: "Incandescence" was challenging but fun (and short), whereas "Anathem" grated because I didn't think I was about to embark on a stealth treatise on schools of philosophy (and it was long).

The parts of "Anathem" where stuff happened were fun, the talking heads, not so much.

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(no subject) - [info]elfs, 2009-03-09 07:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]oh6, 2009-03-10 03:05 am UTC (Expand)

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