james_nicoll: The first poll of the year!

james_nicoll (

james_nicoll) wrote,
@ 2009-01-01 11:34:00

The first poll of the year!
A quick glance at crime stats will show most crimes are committed by males. Fewer males, fewer crimes (and since a large fraction of the victims are male, reducing the number of males also reduces the opportunities to commit crimes). A look at crime stats wrt time will show that male behavior can be altered but incremental progress is so time consuming and a quicker solution was made available when it became possible to select the sex of one's child, either early in the pregnancy (or before) or after.

With that in mind....

Poll #1323720
Open to: All, detailed results viewable to: All

What is the most desirable ratio of male humans to female humans for a more utopian society?

View Answers

100 to 1 or larger
1 (0.7%)

10 to 1
1 (0.7%)

1 to 1
77 (51.7%)

1 to 10
37 (24.8%)

1 to 100
5 (3.4%)

1 to 1000 or higher
4 (2.7%)

Are you familiar with the life cycle of the ceratioid anglerfish?
13 (8.7%)

Some other option you left out that I will explain in comments
11 (7.4%)

(Post a new comment)

	james_nicoll 2009-01-01 04:42 pm UTC (link)
	I see we have a traditionalist. I am off for most of the rest of the day so have fun, you all. (Reply to this)

	debgeisler 2009-01-01 04:49 pm UTC (link)
	The problem with the ceratioid anglerfish is having a pair of gonads permanently affixed to one's flank...ewwwww. (Reply to this)

	galbinus_caeli 2009-01-01 04:49 pm UTC (link)
	Do I get to be the male human who remains? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	fajrdrako 2009-01-01 05:09 pm UTC (link)
	If so, there's a comic book about you. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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nunnehi, 2009-01-01 10:47 pm UTC (Expand)

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fajrdrako, 2009-01-02 01:38 am UTC (Expand)

	drplokta 2009-01-01 04:52 pm UTC (link)
	Utopia must be stable. Any sex ratio other than 1:1 at breeding age (in species with our arrangement of sex chromosomes) is unstable. So it has to be 1:1 unless you redesign human genetics to be haploid, or something more complicated. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	fajrdrako 2009-01-01 05:09 pm UTC (link)
	More complicated... Do you mean cloning? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mindstalk 2009-01-01 10:28 pm UTC (link)
	It's unstable if left up to individual selection. Top-down things like government and cultural policies can introduce forces for stability which were not present in Fisher's model. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	deor 2009-01-01 11:10 pm UTC (link)
	Er, why? One needs two parents to produce offspring, but there are plenty of examples among humans and other mammals of one male servicing multiple females. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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trogon, 2009-01-02 11:10 pm UTC (Expand)

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pecunium, 2009-01-05 06:08 am UTC (Expand)

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drplokta, 2009-01-05 07:05 am UTC (Expand)

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pecunium, 2009-01-06 11:09 pm UTC (Expand)

autopope
2009-01-01 04:58 pm UTC (link)

Aside from Dr Plotka's observation, the majority of crime is not only committed by males, but by males in the age range 12-24. So my humane answer is: mandatory imprisonment for 12-24 year old males, with optional extension for particularly troublesome cases (poor impulse control) and an early graduation option for the ones who aren't obviously suffering from testosterone poisoning.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	lovecraftienne 2009-01-01 05:00 pm UTC (link)
	I picked the anglerfish, but this is just as good. ;) I'd also throw in a probation offer for anyone willing to be freed from the testosterone poisoning. You can get out of jail early, but only if you're a good boy. :D (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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traviswells, 2009-01-01 05:08 pm UTC (Expand)

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james_nicoll, 2009-01-01 08:17 pm UTC (Expand)

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tekalynn, 2009-01-01 11:42 pm UTC (Expand)

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galbinus_caeli, 2009-01-01 05:02 pm UTC (Expand)

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aries_jordan, 2009-01-01 06:45 pm UTC (Expand)

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unixronin, 2009-01-01 06:58 pm UTC (Expand)

ambitious_wench
2009-01-01 05:06 pm UTC (link)

The flaw in your argument is assuming that because men commit the most crimes, men can't be taught non-violent behavior. Society gives men a free pass to be violent--"boys will be boys" mentality. Conversely, women are expected to be passive and non-violent, and when a woman commits a violent crime, she gets hammered in the courts.

Yeah, I'm a rabid feminist. Deal with it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	fajrdrako 2009-01-01 05:11 pm UTC (link)
	I'm a feminist too, and I do believe that men can be taught non-violent behaviour. (Just as women, heaven forbid, could be taught violent behaviour.) But I don't believe we are all so socially conditioned as to let social condition govern our reponses. There's a lot of free will going on. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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ambitious_wench, 2009-01-01 05:15 pm UTC (Expand)

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fajrdrako, 2009-01-02 01:43 am UTC (Expand)

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ambitious_wench, 2009-01-02 02:08 am UTC (Expand)

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fajrdrako, 2009-01-02 02:12 am UTC (Expand)

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ambitious_wench, 2009-01-02 02:18 am UTC (Expand)

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fajrdrako, 2009-01-02 02:56 am UTC (Expand)

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brooksmoses, 2009-01-01 08:18 pm UTC (Expand)

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fajrdrako, 2009-01-02 01:47 am UTC (Expand)

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james_nicoll, 2009-01-01 07:54 pm UTC (Expand)

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commodorified, 2009-01-01 09:13 pm UTC (Expand)

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mindstalk, 2009-01-01 10:30 pm UTC (Expand)

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commodorified, 2009-01-01 10:33 pm UTC (Expand)

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mindstalk, 2009-01-01 10:37 pm UTC (Expand)

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commodorified, 2009-01-01 11:00 pm UTC (Expand)

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pecunium, 2009-01-05 06:15 am UTC (Expand)

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fajrdrako, 2009-01-02 01:48 am UTC (Expand)

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zeborahnz, 2009-01-01 09:15 pm UTC (Expand)

If we can send a man to the moon ... -

commodorified, 2009-01-01 09:40 pm UTC (Expand)

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pecunium, 2009-01-06 11:20 pm UTC (Expand)

	fajrdrako 2009-01-01 05:08 pm UTC (link)
	Tell me about ceratoid anglerfish. Are they the ones that change gender? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	traviswells 2009-01-01 05:10 pm UTC (link)
	No, they're the ones where all the fish captured in the wild were found to be female. Upon closer inspection, they were females which were permanently bonded with males who had withered away to just gonads. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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fajrdrako, 2009-01-01 05:12 pm UTC (Expand)

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traviswells, 2009-01-01 05:18 pm UTC (Expand)

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fridgepunk, 2009-01-01 05:44 pm UTC (Expand)

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traviswells, 2009-01-01 06:09 pm UTC (Expand)

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fridgepunk, 2009-01-01 07:01 pm UTC (Expand)

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secritcrush, 2009-01-01 07:54 pm UTC (Expand)

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le_trombone, 2009-01-01 10:49 pm UTC (Expand)

	radargrrl 2009-01-01 05:13 pm UTC (link)
	Testosterone is one of the most noxious chemicals in nature. All human males should be subject to regular daily doses of cyproterone. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	unixronin 2009-01-01 06:59 pm UTC (link)
	Eh, half measures, half measures. Why not just proceed directly to the Final Solution? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Ahhh...Die Endlösung! -

radargrrl, 2009-01-01 08:27 pm UTC (Expand)

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autopope, 2009-01-01 09:06 pm UTC (Expand)

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sethb, 2009-01-02 04:10 pm UTC (Expand)

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radargrrl, 2009-01-02 04:13 pm UTC (Expand)

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sethb, 2009-01-02 05:03 pm UTC (Expand)

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radargrrl, 2009-01-02 05:15 pm UTC (Expand)

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sethb, 2009-01-02 05:21 pm UTC (Expand)

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radargrrl, 2009-01-02 08:56 pm UTC (Expand)

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sethb, 2009-01-02 11:07 pm UTC (Expand)

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radargrrl, 2009-01-03 12:48 am UTC (Expand)

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sethb, 2009-01-03 01:47 am UTC (Expand)

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radargrrl, 2009-01-03 03:59 am UTC (Expand)

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sethb, 2009-01-03 02:50 pm UTC (Expand)

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radargrrl, 2009-01-03 03:15 pm UTC (Expand)

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sethb, 2009-01-04 12:21 am UTC (Expand)

traviswells
2009-01-01 05:15 pm UTC (link)

either early in the pregnancy (or before) or after.

The "or after" bit is interesting. Easy sex-changes could give you an option to reduce violence: Use it as a punishment.

You could keep the ratio at-birth the same, but alter it later on by turning all the crime-affected males into females.

(It's sad that so many societies consider males superior to females, but if they're going to do it and you've got easy sex change technology, why not take advantage of it?)

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	brooksmoses 2009-01-01 08:21 pm UTC (link)
	Easy sex-changes could give you an option to reduce violence: Use it as a punishment. Oh, my. The social effects that would have are certain to be innocuous, yeah. I'd say it would set back gender-equality stuff by a hundred years, but I think it would also set it sideways at least two hundred. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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traviswells, 2009-01-01 08:43 pm UTC (Expand)

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malada, 2009-01-01 10:18 pm UTC (Expand)

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pecunium, 2009-01-05 06:37 am UTC (Expand)

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tekalynn, 2009-01-01 11:45 pm UTC (Expand)

	lance_mcsteel 2009-01-01 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	Why not simply drug up everyone on ganja? (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	dewline 2009-01-01 06:21 pm UTC (link)
	Ummmm...no thanks. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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fridgepunk, 2009-01-01 07:56 pm UTC (Expand)

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dewline, 2009-01-01 08:01 pm UTC (Expand)

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james_nicoll, 2009-01-01 07:56 pm UTC (Expand)

	jhetley 2009-01-01 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	Perhaps the traditionalists are also thinking about your earlier posting on child-support? (Reply to this)

	seawasp 2009-01-01 05:26 pm UTC (link)
	MUST you take inspiration from a Certain Person? (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	andrewwheeler 2009-01-01 05:41 pm UTC (link)
	And, even worse, when he does take his ideas from a Certain Person, he scandalously neglects to mention growing women in vats! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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badgerbag, 2009-01-01 07:16 pm UTC (Expand)

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james_nicoll, 2009-01-01 08:51 pm UTC (Expand)

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autopope, 2009-01-01 09:05 pm UTC (Expand)

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james_nicoll, 2009-01-01 09:24 pm UTC (Expand)

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talheres, 2009-01-02 01:43 am UTC (Expand)

	cantkeepsilent 2009-01-01 05:46 pm UTC (link)
	Personally, I think that the first step towards actualizing a more utopian society is less planning about how to cull the undesirables from our ranks. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	yorksranter.wordpress.com 2009-01-01 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	Hear, hear. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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traviswells, 2009-01-01 06:10 pm UTC (Expand)

+lots -

unixronin, 2009-01-01 07:16 pm UTC (Expand)

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xinit, 2009-01-01 07:28 pm UTC (Expand)

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autopope, 2009-01-01 09:07 pm UTC (Expand)

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james_nicoll, 2009-01-01 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)

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brooksmoses, 2009-01-01 08:22 pm UTC (Expand)

	mishalak 2009-01-01 06:37 pm UTC (link)
	Oh just make most of the males gay, problem solved. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	traviswells 2009-01-01 06:42 pm UTC (link)
	I was trying to figure out a way to suggest that. Although that leaves the question, is Mr. Nicoll's "violence=males" theory really a "violence=heterosexual males" theory? If not, your ingenious plan is simply going to result in slightly gayer violence. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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mishalak, 2009-01-02 03:07 am UTC (Expand)

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ertchin, 2009-01-02 07:10 am UTC (Expand)

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fridgepunk, 2009-01-01 07:53 pm UTC (Expand)

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mishalak, 2009-01-02 03:36 am UTC (Expand)

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james_nicoll, 2009-01-01 08:52 pm UTC (Expand)

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mishalak, 2009-01-02 03:02 am UTC (Expand)

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keithmm, 2009-01-02 06:13 am UTC (Expand)

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fridgepunk, 2009-01-02 03:24 pm UTC (Expand)

	aries_jordan 2009-01-01 06:48 pm UTC (link)
	How about 2 to 3 or even 1 to 2? That ratio works very well in my family and limited social circle. Of course I say that because I am one of the females lucky enough to have a mate. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	isquiesque 2009-01-01 11:54 pm UTC (link)
	That was sort of my thought when I clicked 'other'... (Reply to this) (Parent)

zxhrue
2009-01-01 07:56 pm UTC (link)

most of the sex selection that I know about tends to favor males, not females...and barring the aforementioned revolution I think it's gonna remain that way.

Whileaway didn't sound like a place I'd want to live -- of course being male, I wouldn't be there anyway, so that's moot. (for the 0 to n option)

the world of Herbert's White Plague didn't sound as though it was gonna result in less violence (for the 1000 to 1 option)

I wonder what violent crime rates were like in europe after the war to end all wars? of course not an ideal sample (many ex-soldiers with PTSD can't help the violent crime rates).

I think I'd go for a combo of the ambitious wench's teach your children well with the strossian solution (send the adolescent males off to the boyland exclusion zone and cull the survivors for civility) and hopefully end up at no less than 1:2 or 2:3.

as an aside, at least some parts of india are heading rapidly for the 3:2 ratio, and that doesn't look like it's turning out well.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	autopope 2009-01-01 09:10 pm UTC (link)
	I'd like to just add that I was proposing that as a Swiftian exercise -- I'm the product of just such an environment myself (all-male schooling from age 8-18) and I'm not at all sure it's a workable solution (let alone a humane one). Sociopaths emulate socialization, after all. (Reply to this) (Parent)

beaq
2009-01-01 11:56 pm UTC (link)

Did I miss something that said an uneven ratio would be achieved by killing people? I read the question as being about the end result, not about the means.

Also, I'm not entirely sure where the idea comes from that utopia involves heterosexual pairing-off. Or why homosexual men wouldn't be as oppressive to women as heterosexual men. Or why testosterone mightn't be better dealt with by distributing it more equitably. Or or or!

Wellanyway.

(Reply to this)

	geekosaur 2009-01-02 02:48 am UTC (link)
	One word: Lyrane. (Reply to this)

	wakboth 2009-01-02 10:13 pm UTC (link)
	Do I remember right that Heinlein, in one of his later books, wrote something about young men being raised in captivity, and only released into the society if they show they can be members of the society, instead of, well, stereotypical young men? (It sounds like the sort of cranky and crankish comment you'd see from Heinlein, whether or not he took it seriously.) (Reply to this)

	morgan_dhu 2009-01-02 11:40 pm UTC (link)
	My preference is to keep the naturally occurring ratio but structure society in ways that 1. reduce the various social conditions that appear to be connected with certain kinds of crime (poverty, lack of options for education/jobs, etc. 2. give young males something more constructive to do with their testosterone than engage in high-risk and/or violent behaviours (Reply to this)

	pecunium 2009-01-05 06:12 am UTC (link)
	For reasons of my personal well being, 1:10. I don't think I can pull my weight if the ratio is larger than that, not and be able to take photos too. (Reply to this)

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