james_nicoll ([info]james_nicoll) wrote,
@ 2008-09-02 13:01:00
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The check list of things that turn up in SF that annoy James: A Work in Progress
1: The assumption that humans, particularly masses of them, have negative value.

2: The singularity used as the secular End of Days.

3: Inconsistent application of technology without reasons why it is applied so unevenly [A] This goes double for technology that should be universal but is not applied on Earth. Note that implied reasons are OK.

4: Inexcusably stupid science. Stars move. Lasers cannot be used as radiators. If you skim (or as we like to call it, "aerobrake") a gas giant's atmosphere, you still need to pay the delta vee for each kg lofted to orbit. Don't get me started on space-straws. You cannot use reflected light to warm something up hotter than the light source you are using. And so on.

5: The embrace of ignorance as a social good (This pops up more as a meta than in stories [B] but it's the rallying cry of thousands who I assume were forced to read Thomas Hardy in high school). I call this the "For fucks sake, the New Wave was over and done with before most people reading this LJ were born!" principle.

6: The unconsidered use of ideas that may have made sense 50 years ago or which perhaps never made sense at all but sounded good at the time.

7: Any mention of Zheng He. I know, it's a pity such an interesting individual has to be sequested for the moment but right now SFnal discussions of him almost always end up Bad Touch SF.

8: Speaking of real Bad Touche SF, creepy sexual politics without any apparent awareness of how creepy the creepy sexual politics are.

9: The joyful embrace of highly restricted human rights (and if you waterboard a variety of SF authors on this subject, you will see that this is not a right-left thing. It probably ties into 1).

10: Scale errors, like stories where humanity settles the literally dozens of stars in the Milky Way or where the author provides a handwave for the Fermi Paradox that works for a period of thousands of years but not the billions of years it needs to work for.


A: Earth for example has quite a range of technological kits in common use but there are reasons why it works like this here.

B: Although there is the fact that when authors like MacDonald or Williams dip their toes in the pool of regions outside the core Anglosphere, this stands out because it is unusual. Comments like

"This system (Pohl and Kornbluth used to write) has evident virtues, together with some defects. For istance, as in Wolfbane [...] you may get a brilliant analysis of the Oriental life pattern, developed and projected onto a future civilization on this continent (1500 calories a day: slouching gait, politeness, minuscule sub-arts-- Water Watching, Clouds and Odors, Sky Viewing...people named Tropile and Boyne, in towns called Wheeling, Altoona and Gary, walking through an elaborate life-long ritual, purely and simply because their diet permit nothing better) [...]."

are probably not as dated as I'd like to think they are.


(94 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]twoeleven
2008-09-02 05:37 pm UTC (link)
I must be missing something WRT Zheng He. What stories/authors are you thinking of?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]austin_dern
2008-09-02 06:06 pm UTC (link)

Well, see, those foolish politicians who insist on NASA having actual objectives worth accomplishing before handing over half a trillion dollars a year to build Super-Saturn V's and rocket to Pluto by 1975 are exactly like that foolish Chinese emperor Whatsizname who refused to follow up Zheng He's armada with conquering the world and that's why we're all doooooomed until we get new leadership bold plan striking vision mining the asteroids in-situ resource utilization space elevator nuclear rocket engine propellant warnings of history leadership dilute dilute ok!

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(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2008-09-02 06:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eyelessgame, 2008-09-02 08:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wintermuted, 2008-09-03 12:52 am UTC (Expand)

[info]carloshasanax
2008-09-02 05:49 pm UTC (link)
I too am curious about number seven.

(Reply to this)


[info]agrumer
2008-09-02 05:57 pm UTC (link)
"Space-straws"?

I really need to read more current SF. I have no idea of what you're going on about for roughly 80% of that list.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]james_nicoll
2008-09-02 06:04 pm UTC (link)
Take a world with an atmosphere. Build a hollow tube from deep within the atmosphere into orbit. Expect air pressure to force air up the tube and into orbit.

This is used in Gradisil and The Jovian (And I think a short story I read sometime in the last two years). Note that the author of Gradisil had his book vetted by Stephen Baxter so it's not like he didn't try to make an effort to avoid horrible scientific errors.

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(no subject) - [info]agrumer, 2008-09-02 06:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 06:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]galbinus_caeli, 2008-09-02 06:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]marydell, 2008-09-02 07:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]galbinus_caeli, 2008-09-02 07:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]marydell, 2008-09-03 02:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eyelessgame, 2008-09-02 08:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]galbinus_caeli, 2008-09-02 09:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]heron61, 2008-09-02 11:22 pm UTC (Expand)
7
[info]james_nicoll
2008-09-02 06:00 pm UTC (link)
Zheng He gets used as a terrible warning for what happens when the court eunuchs lose influence cultures stop exploring. The Treasure Fleets are burned and *bang* China loses the Opium War (Assuming the writer in question has ever heard the Opium War and doesn't think China has existed in stasis for the last five thousand years).

As I recall, Baxter has a variation on this theme in the Time's Tapestry series where the failure of European exploration of the trans-Atlantic in the late 15th century leads to the Inevitable Conquest of the Old World by the Dynamic Aztecs.

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Re: 7
[info]beamjockey
2008-09-02 06:09 pm UTC (link)
Does V. Vinge get a pass on #7, or is he condemned too?

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Re: 7 - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 06:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]agrumer, 2008-09-02 06:27 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]carloshasanax, 2008-09-02 06:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]roseembolism, 2008-09-02 07:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 07:31 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]thesaucernews, 2008-09-02 08:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]ross_teneyck, 2008-09-02 09:31 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]martinl_00, 2008-09-03 11:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]roseembolism, 2008-09-06 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]heron61, 2008-09-03 10:33 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7
[info]twoeleven
2008-09-02 06:13 pm UTC (link)
Are you objecting to the "cultures stop exploring" trope specifically, or the more general "inexcusably stupid social science/history/etc"?

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Re: 7 - [info]twoeleven, 2008-09-02 06:16 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 06:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7
[info]carloshasanax
2008-09-02 06:19 pm UTC (link)
Are there recent examples of the Zheng He? because there are finally some good books -- and some incredibly awful von Daniken-style crap -- out there.

I know, silly me, I expect science fiction authors to do research and base their writing on fact.

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Re: 7 - [info]martin_wisse, 2008-09-02 08:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: 7 - [info]carloshasanax, 2008-09-02 09:07 pm UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2008-09-02 06:10 pm UTC (link)
I was also going to ask what a "space straw" is. Having read your description: Hee!

I'm also not sure what #5 is about. (Yes, I am confessing to ignorance about ignorance. I have a feeling that I ought to be ashamed of myself.) Can you give some examples of current (or recent) works that violate it?

- Ken

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[info]j_larson
2008-09-02 06:15 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure either what the connection is between embracing ignorance and obsessing about the New Wave.

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(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 07:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 07:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]roseembolism, 2008-09-02 07:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 07:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fridgepunk, 2008-09-02 07:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 08:06 pm UTC (Expand)
Military SF - [info]tamahori, 2008-09-02 08:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Military SF - [info]martin_wisse, 2008-09-02 08:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eyelessgame, 2008-09-02 08:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fridgepunk, 2008-09-02 10:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mindstalk, 2008-09-02 11:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]agrumer, 2008-09-03 01:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dewline, 2008-09-05 10:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]roseembolism, 2008-09-06 09:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]j_larson, 2008-09-02 07:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 07:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-09-02 08:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mindstalk, 2008-09-02 11:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-09-04 05:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-02 09:34 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]lpetrazickis
2008-09-02 06:19 pm UTC (link)
7. Zheng He in Mary Gentle's Ilario and KSR's Years of Rice and Salt was interesting and not used in the way you mention. However, they are not necessarily SF in the orthodox sense.

(Reply to this)


[info]marydell
2008-09-02 07:40 pm UTC (link)
7. Bad Touch SF? I almost get what you mean by this but I'm not sure. Possibly because Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky and A Fire Upon the Deep mention Zheng He, and they rock. I'm guessing you're talking about a more contemporary reference...can you tell I don't read enough? yah.

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[info]marydell
2008-09-02 07:45 pm UTC (link)
D'oh, I didn't notice the thousand comments preceding this when I clicked to post. (in my defense, on my friend page, it just showed a "comment" link not a "1,000 comments" link).

I just ignored all the singularity folderol in A Fire Upon the Deep because...yay! talking doggies!!!

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[info]eyelessgame
2008-09-02 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Yah, Deepness manages to have Vinge's depressing no-singularity-means-we're-dOOmed!!!1! worldview while still being an awesome story, probably becase you already know it's headed for the world in Fire Upon, where things are no longer boom-n-bust because Teh Singularity happened. (And it was Galactic Usenet.)

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(no subject) - [info]space_parasite, 2008-09-02 11:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]marydell, 2008-09-03 02:11 am UTC (Expand)

[info]autopope
2008-09-02 08:54 pm UTC (link)
This may fall under #10 (scale errors), but how about adding an #11?

I'd vote for "small farming planet" as error #11. Monocultures, monopolities, universal biomes with one predator and one prey species, one weather pattern ... it crops up time and again in SF, including stuff by authors who should have known better (Frank Herbert, I'm pointing at you).

"Whenever I hear about a planet with a world government, I look for the mass graves and the holes in the geopolitical map."

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[info]thesaucernews
2008-09-02 09:38 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if this isn't a subset of #1, with the underlying assumption being that one of the evils of large human populations is the breeding of a messy and unwieldy diversity of viewpoints (and the people who hold them)?

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[info]timgueguen
2008-09-02 09:38 pm UTC (link)
Often that kind of thing stems from the fact writers are actually sticking bumps on the head of an existing Earth culture they don't like, or sometimes do like, to create their "aliens." Its a lot easier to stick a funny nose on the Soviet Union and write "space Commies" that it is to create a believeable alien race with an alien culture, and even more so than trying to create a believable alien race with multiple cultures. A lot of writers are no doubt proud of themselves when they create an alien world with aliens that wow, have two, or if they're really ambitious, three cultures. Never mind that just changes it from a story where the heroes encounter "space Commies" into one where they also encounter "space Yankees."

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[info]fridgepunk
2008-09-03 12:03 am UTC (link)
To be fair Dune is actually one of the few justified single biomes - Basically by the time of God Emperor of Dune Dune has actually ceased to be a single biome, which it turns out was the fault of the the sandworms themselves, who had been locking the water away for millions of years.

And if that doesn't sound likely, remember that humans are either the third or fifth species to have a notable effect on earth's climate - that a "arrakisforming organism" (for want of a better term) could occur in an ecosystem, dominate it, then slowly begin colonising nearby ecosystems, making them more like its prefferred habitat, is possible. The only real trouble is that it'd be more believable if it was the fault of bacteria rather than a large animal like the sandworm - though obviously the first dune book would have taken a bit longer if the fremen had had to ride amoebas from place to place

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(no subject) - [info]scentofviolets, 2008-09-03 12:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rotty_0079, 2008-09-03 04:55 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]brett_dunbar, 2008-09-03 09:02 am UTC (Expand)
Wood roaches - (Anonymous), 2008-09-03 09:41 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Wood roaches - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-03 03:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Lignin - (Anonymous), 2008-09-03 05:02 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Wood roaches - (Anonymous), 2008-09-03 03:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]marydell, 2008-09-03 02:18 am UTC (Expand)

[info]redbird
2008-09-03 12:10 am UTC (link)
The problem with the creepy sexual politics, in sf, other genres, or nonfiction, is that the authors don't realize how creepy they are. I'm not sure whether the ones who put the stuff in without thinking are worse than the ones who are actively pleased with their projections, world-descriptions, and/or advocacy of such things.

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[info]wintermuted
2008-09-03 01:12 am UTC (link)
These seem as if they could all spring from immaturity. Restricted life experience. Had I written SF at 14, I might well have made all the errors but number 2, which wasn't invented yet. If twelve is supposed to be the golden age for SF readers, perhaps writers slip back into that mindset too?

I'm surprised Belisarius wasn't listed: virtuous soldier and his unworthy evil scheming political master(s). Man, I'm tired of that. At least someone could do Yue Fei for a change.

I suspect that the current hoo-hah in the genre about "the singularity" is going to look awfully like atomic toothbrushes in a decade or two.

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[info]james_nicoll
2008-09-03 03:11 pm UTC (link)
More like how all advanced races were supposed to become telepathic and then develop a mass mind.

Imagine being trapped in your own skull with the most odious person you can think of, forever. No wonder Old Races fades out. Extinction would be the only escape.

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(no subject) - [info]wintermuted, 2008-09-04 12:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-04 12:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wintermuted, 2008-09-04 01:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]autopope, 2008-09-04 11:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2008-09-03 03:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wintermuted, 2008-09-03 10:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carloshasanax, 2008-09-03 11:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wintermuted, 2008-09-04 01:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kingwalters, 2008-09-04 07:31 pm UTC (Expand)
Oh,and lest I forget
(Anonymous)
2008-09-03 11:41 am UTC (link)
I love you, man.


Doug M.

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[info]heron61
2008-09-03 10:27 pm UTC (link)
I find 7 pathetic, but far to understandable. I wonder how many of the space-nuts talking about Zheng He know he was a eunuch or that the abandonment of his voyages was a result of rivalry between the scholars and the eunuchs in the Chinese court.

I can definitely see some of the space-nuts painting people who object to nutty space ideas on various practical grounds as being like the Chinese court scholars (with accusations of being hidebound and suchlike being obvious attacks). OTOH, that leaves the space-nuts as painting themselves as the court eunuchs, which has all manner of possibilities for humor.

(Reply to this)

Bliss is in ignorance: what's the harm?
[info]gareth_rees
2008-09-03 11:30 pm UTC (link)
The embrace of ignorance as a social good ... the rallying cry of thousands who I assume were forced to read Thomas Hardy

Presumably you mean that these thousands wished they had remained ignorant of Thomas Hardy?

Hardy himself did not see ignorance as a social good: indeed he cries out against it in several of his works, most notably Jude the Obscure but also Tess of the D'Urbervilles and The Mayor of Casterbridge.

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Re: Bliss is in ignorance: what's the harm?
[info]james_nicoll
2008-09-03 11:41 pm UTC (link)
My apologies to Mr. Hardy for being unclear. I did indeed mean those who rue and lament having had to read him.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Bliss is in ignorance: what's the harm? - [info]james_nicoll, 2008-09-03 11:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Bliss is in ignorance: what's the harm? - [info]stephen_dedman, 2008-09-07 06:16 am UTC (Expand)
#1
[info]ms_daisy_cutter
2008-09-04 12:44 am UTC (link)
You know, it always amuses me when people tut-tut and wag their fingers at us misanthropists. I should think that history, current events, and half of the internet would provide ample evidence that as a race, we're essentially, to quote Saint Bill of Hicks, "a virus with shoes."

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