james_nicoll: Speaking of Budrys

james_nicoll (

james_nicoll) wrote,
@ 2008-06-11 13:51:00

Speaking of Budrys
scottedelman posted Budrys' "10 Most Promising New Science Fiction & Fantasy Writers" from 1982.

1. Paul Preuss
2. Parke Godwin
3. Arsen Darnay
4. Michael Swanwick
5. Somtow Sucharitkul
6. Victor Besaw
7. Lucius Shepard
8. Madeline Robins
9. Robert L. Forward
10. Robert Frazier

I am not familiar with Besaw, Robins or Frazier and I am a little surprised to see Forward's name because with all due respect to the late Mr. Forward, his writing was pretty clunky. I am allergic to Shepard's fiction and so cannot comment on it. I note that aside from the three people who I have not heard of, I own books by all the listed authors. More to the point, I remember the books they wrote, which I think is a good sign.

I wonder what Darnay is doing these days? It seemed like he just fell off the face of the Earth in 1981.

(49 comments) - (Post a new comment)

	aisb23 2008-06-11 06:06 pm UTC (link)
	"Waiting for the Galactic Bus" and "The Snake Oil Wars" by Parke Godwin are two of my favorite SF books ever! (Reply to this)

	kate_nepveu 2008-06-11 06:08 pm UTC (link)
	Madeline Robins wrote _The Stone War_, a post-apocalyptic fantasy novel set in New York that I recall as being really excellent until the end, which I'm not sure I understood/bought/cared for--it's been a while. She also wrote two excellent Austen noirs that are very slightly alternate history, _Point of Honour_ and _Petty Treason_ (my review). (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mayakda 2008-06-11 06:15 pm UTC (link)
	I liked Point of Honour & Petty Treason very much. Robins is the only one on that list that I've read, although the others look familiar. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	scarlettina 2008-06-11 08:26 pm UTC (link)
	You will find her on LJ at madrobins, although she hasn't posted much of anything about writing lately. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	mayakda 2008-06-11 08:39 pm UTC (link)
	Is she not writing anymore? :( (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	scarlettina 2008-06-11 08:43 pm UTC (link)
	I'm sure she's writing. She's just not talking about it. Not everyone does. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	carbonel 2008-06-11 06:14 pm UTC (link)
	Madeleine Robins (note spelling) was an editor for Tor before she started writing, and I met her a couple of times in that capacity. I liked her novel of a New York gone creepy -- The Stone War. I haven't read her other two books (about a fallen woman private eye), but I mean to one of these days. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	papersky 2008-06-11 07:21 pm UTC (link)
	I bet you'd really like them. I like them with only minute reservations, and they're much more your kind of thing than my kind of thing. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	shimgray 2008-06-11 06:14 pm UTC (link)
	There's an Arsen J. Darnay writing rather dry looking technical stuff - Encyclopedia of small business, Statistical record of older Americans - which seems to have started in the early-mid 1990s. The LoC seems to think this is the same author - they're both listed under the same heading - and if so he's still around and editing rather hefty works. (Reply to this)

	juliansinger 2008-06-11 06:19 pm UTC (link)
	Robins comments on Making Light a bunch. Also, most of her stuff appears to be semi-supernatural mysteries/romances. (A HREF="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ATH=Madeline+Robins"> Or so says Barnes and Noble.</a> (I'm pretty sure she's also on LJ but I forget her handle.) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	james_nicoll 2008-06-11 06:20 pm UTC (link)
	My eyes are tired. I read that as "semi-agricultural mysteries/romances". (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	juliansinger 2008-06-11 06:23 pm UTC (link)
	No, that's Jean Auel. (Also, whinge, now I can't correct my HTML.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jaylake 2008-06-11 06:28 pm UTC (link)
	Robins is madrobins, and has remained active in the field. Frazier is timalyne's dad, and is (along with her) the only parent-child team to ever attend Clarion. I believe he's better known as a poet than as a genre writer. I don't know anything about Besaw. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	james_nicoll 2008-06-11 06:40 pm UTC (link)
	[nervously checks friends list] madrobins is a FOAF (well, FO multiple Fs) but not on my Flist as far as I can see so this is not as embarassing as it could be. If I happen to mention a book that someone on my list has written and then I say that I have no read it, all I mean is that I have not read it. No criticism of the book is implied. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jaylake 2008-06-11 06:46 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, I took no aspersion on behalf of anyone. My own ignorance is boundless. As a writer, one of my core assumptions is that no one has ever read my work, and if they have, they did not like it. This increases my number of pleasant surprised while significantly minimizing the unpleasant ones. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	papersky 2008-06-11 07:22 pm UTC (link)
	Me too. That's exactly my position, with a side of "Of course you haven't read my books. And you don't have to tell me you haven't read my books but you mean to sometime, honestly, because that just makes conversation awkward." (Reply to this) (Parent)

	dd_b 2008-06-12 04:08 pm UTC (link)
	At this point there are whole bunches of friends' books that I haven't read (along with bunches that I have), and we've mostly worked out the protocol: They don't ask unless they actually want to know, and I don't bring it up myself unless I liked it. Except in my booklog, which does complicate things. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Arsen Darnay dragonet2 2008-06-11 06:55 pm UTC (link)
	has a listing here: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/d/arsen-darnay/ Looks like he's done nothing since the economic stuff in the first half of the 90s. (Reply to this)

dd_b
2008-06-11 07:22 pm UTC (link)

Darnay was said to be in Minneapolis (well, in the Twin Cities metropolitan area) back then, but nobody here had ever met them (at the time nobody thought they knew the appropriate pronoun, either). Which seemed strange.

Lots of people appear for a while and then just stop appearing. I'd guess it has to do with the economics of publishing, with a side of some people dying. (This is not the same as cases like David Palmer, where those of us who read the second book felt we knew why he'd disappeared.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	zxhrue 2008-06-12 02:40 pm UTC (link)
	Just out of curiosity, why did you feel as though you knew why DRP disappeared based upon _Threshold_? As an aside, he has apparently recently reappeared... http://www.amazon.com/review/RDAT39JVPMNSL/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

dd_b
2008-06-12 03:57 pm UTC (link)

I and everybody I talked to thought Threshold absolutely and totally stank. When a series is interrupted in the middle after a very unpromising start, most people will draw the obvious conclusion. (I may well like Emergence rather more than it deserves, and still re-read it now and then.)

I've seen the signs of the sequel to Emergence. I'm fairly terrified, and will wait for reports from friends before I risk reading it. But hey, if it's good, that's great. I think I'd have felt a lot safer if he'd tried a third universe for his reappearance, rather than returning to either of the previous two.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	james_nicoll 2008-06-12 04:05 pm UTC (link)
	I think John Schilling has reviewed the sequel on rasfw. (Reply to this) (Parent)

zxhrue
2008-06-12 05:45 pm UTC (link)

Also was not a impressed by _Threshold_, but mostly as a response to how amazed I was by _Emergence_. I just recently reread in both the original novella (the _Children of Tomorrow_ version), and my tattered paperback copy, and while it certainly shows its age, I still regularly recommend it to people.

Having just skimmed the rasfw thread that james_nicoll referred to, it sounds as though "Tracking" will be worth reading.

Will undoubtedly avoid the _Threshold_ sequel unless it gets hit it out of the park reviews.

And the amazon comment indicates a third universe story.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

dd_b
2008-06-12 08:47 pm UTC (link)

Wait a minute, "the Children of Tomorrow version"?? That title to me denotes a major anthology from the 60s I think, which I've read numerous times. Are you referring to another volume of that title, or have I somehow missed finding something related to Emergence in it?

Oh, wait, false alarm -- I'm sure I'm actually thinking of Tomorrow's Children, edited by Isaac Asimov, published 1966.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

zxhrue
2008-06-13 02:32 am UTC (link)

No, actually your instincts were right :) Van Vogt's _Children of Tomorrow_ is a completely different book.

'Emergence' was in _Analog_, _Analog's Children of the Future_, and in Terry Carr, ed. _The Years Best Science Fiction, 11_.

I was thinking of the second (hey, it had children in the title and the right time flavor).

Although, come to think of it, Star of 'Star Bright' in _Tomorrow's Children_ is kinda of an earlier (much more gifted variant) of Candy, so maybe that's how I got there... Lot of good stories in that collection actually; thanks for the reminder, I'll go dig it up for inclusion in the queue.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	zxhrue 2008-06-13 02:40 am UTC (link)
	ObTopic: the initial _Analog_ publication was in the January 1981 issue, the latter two were published in 1982, the same year that _Emergence_ was a Hugo nominee. ok. time to put the internets down and walk away from the keyboard for the night. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	roseembolism 2008-06-11 07:35 pm UTC (link)
	To speculate, I suspect that Forward was on that list purely because of the "literature of ideas" aspect of SF. Granted his writing is clunky; but he made up hard SF-ish scenarios that were incredible, and did some fantastic world-building. Annd for classic SF fans, the writing ability is secondary to the ideas. So, chalk it up to a literay style nostalgia? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	shimgray 2008-06-11 08:43 pm UTC (link)
	Perhaps it was just that Budrys expected his style to improve in ways which, it later transpired, he did not? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	james_nicoll 2008-06-11 08:45 pm UTC (link)
	It would be a little weird if he had. Forward found the note he liked early in his career. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	carloshasanax 2008-06-11 11:01 pm UTC (link)
	If memory serves, Budrys also hoped Niven (whom he enjoyed) would mature as a writer. So Budrys was an optimist. There are worse things. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	roseembolism 2008-06-11 11:35 pm UTC (link)
	The difference is that Niven at least I find very readable (at least in his older stuff), and I can at least get some idea of the mental landscape of his characters. Forward is just...awkward. I managed to finish one of his books, and that was enough. It seemed to me that in his later books the plotting was where Niven was falling down. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	j_larson 2008-06-12 08:29 pm UTC (link)
	Some kindly editor should have pushed Forward to write novels without any human beings in them -- only robots and aliens. His poor character work would have been less jarring if used to depict characters who could be expected to behave rather oddly in any case. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2008-06-11 09:08 pm UTC (link)

I am, I suppose, a new-wave fan, I place Ballard and Aldiss very high on my list of favourite writers, I've read Dhalgren three times, and I used to go on for some length explaining the greatness of Keith Roberts' style (not that, in retrospect, I think I knew what I was talking about. These things are always crystal clear after a few pints). And I just can't read Doc Smith.

But clunky writing or not, "Dragon's Egg" blew me away like no other SF novel had in years, or would for more years. Frankly I don't think I noticed the style at all, or if I did see problems, I forgot them instantly.

Had anyone asked me for a list of promising SF authors, Forward would have been on it.

William Hyde

(Reply to this)

rosefox
2008-06-11 09:18 pm UTC (link)

Somtow Sucharitkul = S.P. Somtow, yes? Haven't read anything novel-length of his but I recall quite liking the short fiction I've encountered in YBs.

I'll take your share of Shepard; I love his work. Quite liked the most recent Swanwick. Forward had nifty ideas but I agree with you about his style. I know Godwin and Robins by name, and maybe Frazier, but haven't read their fiction. Don't know the rest.

(Reply to this)

	dd_b 2008-06-11 10:13 pm UTC (link)
	Interesting; in that while I've read the majority of them and heard of most of the rest, none of them has in fact turned out to be at all important in the field (unless possibly Madeline is as an editor). Forward seems to me the one that's closest to being important (if a weird choice for Budrys). (Reply to this) (Thread)

tomscud
2008-06-11 11:13 pm UTC (link)

Swanwick's won a few awards at least. Interesting question: who would you pick in retrospect? Taking "promising" to mean "hasn't already produced a major work", so William Gibson would be out, and OS Card (I think the novel of ENDER'S GAME was in 1982), but also "someone one would reasonably have heard of".

Egan? Hadn't published anything yet.

Pratchett? Had written STRATA and DARK SIDE OF THE SUN (and THE CARPET PEOPLE). Definitely on the list.

Bujold? Hadn't published anything (long-form at least) yet.

Neal Stephenson? THE BIG U was published in 1984, so no.

Anyone?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	tomscud 2008-06-11 11:18 pm UTC (link)
	John Crowley: Had already written Little, Big. Tim Powers: Could be; had only written DRAWING OF THE DARK plus those two early SF novels; ANUBIS GATES came out in '83. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	tomscud 2008-06-11 11:19 pm UTC (link)
	Gene Wolfe: Had already written the first 3 books of the BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, wouldn't count as "promising". (Reply to this) (Parent)

	j_larson 2008-06-12 11:34 am UTC (link)
	William Gibson broke through in short fiction in 1981. He had three stories in Omni that year: "Johnny Mnemonic", "Hinterlands", and "New Rose Hotel." Granted, his big success was still some years in the future, but Omni was still a major magazine back then. A canny observer of the SF scene might well have noticed. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tomscud
2008-06-12 04:29 pm UTC (link)

Oh, yeah. My memory shifted the 80s forward about three years - I though NEUROMANCER had already come out, in which case calling Gibson "promising" would be a bit much. Which also means OS Card hadn't yet written the novel of ENDER'S GAME (although he had won the Campbell for best new author on the strength of the novella), so maybe he'd count. Greg Bear is another possibility. Connie Willis, also. Vernor Vinge, maybe. (He'd already written "True Names", but no high-impact novel).

(Reply to this) (Parent)

dd_b
2008-06-12 04:14 pm UTC (link)

Interesting question. That's too early for my friends from the Scribblies to show up (Shadow Magic was 1982, and she was the first). Lots of people were solidly established then, they're the ones I think of. Lots of stuff I hated was just starting to appear then, though; David Eddings, Terry Brooks. Donaldson was a bit earlier. I have a vague impression that the "hot action" was largely in bad fantasy then.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

tomscud
2008-06-12 04:38 pm UTC (link)

Well, collecting my various noodlings on this, here's half a top-10 list:
- Pratchett
- Gibson (hadn't published NEUROMANCER yet)
- Orson Scott Card (hadn't published the novel version of ENDER'S GAME, though he'd won awards for the novella as well as the Campbell Award, so maybe he's too well-established to be "promising")
- Vernor Vinge (See Card, but with reference to "True Names")
- Connie Willis (like or hate, she has won a million or two hugo awards)

Oh, and as a special bonus:
- Robert Jordan (of course, you'd have to be completely clairvoyant to see that a guy who wrote a couple Conan novels, as well as a historical romance series under a different pen-name, would be maybe the biggest commercial success in the field in the 1990s).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

dd_b
2008-06-12 08:55 pm UTC (link)

Vinge was publishing shorts in the 1960s, and his first novel as well. I don't think you can have him as "promising" in 1982. Although you certainly can argue that "True Names" in 1981 marked a major departure point, so I suppose if one wanted to push it, one could try to claim him as "newly promising", say.

Card is a good catch; I thought he'd started earlier, but doesn't much look like it (earliest I can find is 1977).

Oh! David Brin! I don't much like where he's gone, but the evidence to see him as "coming" was there in 1982, and he's been fairly big even if not so much to my taste.

I think perhaps Jordan is not one who reasonably could have been recognized in 1982 :-).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	tomscud 2008-06-13 07:24 pm UTC (link)
	I've written a post here summarizing and giving a top 10. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	cofax7 2008-06-12 08:20 pm UTC (link)
	CJ Cherryh, unless she was already too well-established for your criteria. Didn't she win the Hugo/Nebula for Downbelow Station in 82? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	dd_b 2008-06-12 08:56 pm UTC (link)
	Worst novel I've ever read about 2/3 of. Admittedly that's a small category. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bluetyson 2008-06-12 01:38 am UTC (link)
	Depends what you mean by important. If you mean 'is not Arthur C. Clarke', then no, no-one will ever be important like that again. Shepard and Swanwick are clearly influential, and also still writing. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	dd_b 2008-06-12 04:03 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, they're the ones you can make the strongest arguments for. To my eye they're off in a dead corner of the field that they helped invent, but which never took off; but opinions may vary. And it's certainly not just Heinlein that nobody will ever be as important as again, agreed. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	drpaisley 2008-06-11 11:33 pm UTC (link)
	Madeleine Roberts posts as part of the Eat Our Brainscollective, along with Bradley Denton, Steven Gould, Maureen McHugh, Caroline Spector, Morgan J. Locke and Rory Harper. Definitely worth checking out. (Reply to this)

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