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james_nicoll
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Nicked from vonandmoggy

It must kinda suck to be batshit crazy, yet still self-aware enough to be able to tell that people think you're batshit crazy.
(Frozen) (Thread)

*nods* Indeed, Sim is in the unfortunately middle ground of definitely not sane but insufficiently crazy for his own peace of mind.
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::blink blink::

Batshit crazy, yeah, that about sums it up. Sad, really.
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Thank you for this.
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I think I'll do that too, but people will just have to acknowledge how sexy I am or something.
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Just because someone is going to be the first to suggest this so I will be the first: Sim's approach is perfectly fine (why should he have to correspond with people who dislike him, after all) but really, for this kind of thing you want one of those shrink-wrap contracts where opening the book means that they agree to the contract that they can only read by opening the book.
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Just because someone is going to be the first to suggest this, Your Sexiness, so I will be the first: Sim's approach is perfectly fine — especially for people as sexy as you, Nick — (why should he have to correspond with people who dislike him, after all) but really, for this kind of thing you want one of those shrink-wrap contracts where opening the book means that they agree to the contract that they can only read by opening the book, or before they take off all their clothes for you.


Fixed.
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FWIIW, the essential elements of a legally binding contract are consensus ad idem, which is just bogus Latin for agreement about what the contract is about; an offer; acceptance; consideration (an actual exchange of stuff, be what it may); and legal competence (which just means the law says you can get yourself into a contract, viz. are not a minor, etc.)

Now, if you can't read the contract at the time you "agree" (by breaking the shrink wrap), there can be no consensus ad idem, hence no contract (whatever a bullying wannabe contractual counter-party may claim).

This is a well-settled area of law, based on things like cases where parking lots had signs setting out the terms of use of the parking lot, on billboards you could only read after you took a ticket from the automatic dispenser, so the gate would go up and let you in to read the billboard, etc.

Mind you, only God and the Trial Lawyers of America (sorry, "American Justice League", or whatever foetid misleading rubbish name they've re-branded as) know what perverse deviations from these principles jointly and severally apply in the Untidy States of America.
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Okay, now you're just using your friends list to conduct unethical psychological experiments regarding link-clicking behavior. Not falling for it.
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How can I label it without the label being a comment?
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I dunno, maybe something like "caution: operant conditioning experiment in progress"?

(Because you care, etc.)
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That's rather sad.
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Well, guess I'm off the list of potential Dave Sim correspondents. Such is life.
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There needs to be a box for "Dave Sim is a misogynist, but that's only to start."

Or maybe "He's a thoughtful, interesting guy who is a screaming loony on the following subjects."

It's sad, but Sim seems to be at a point where he needs to swear off talking to or about women for several years -- and maybe thinking about and looking at them, too. Perhaps one of the Gulf States could accommodate that?
(Frozen) (Thread)

"He's a thoughtful, interesting guy who is a screaming loony on the following subjects."

"He's a thoughtful, interesting guy who is NOT a screaming loony on the following subject: comics craft. Just don't let him talk about anything else at all. And probably stay away from self-publishing too actually."
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The funny thing is, Dave on paper is completely different from Dave face to face.
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I'd believe that for sure (especially given that you live in the same town as him!)
In which case I suppose you might have an opinion on his... sanity? (although you might not want to offer said opinion which is fair enough)
Maybe he just enjoys doing the in-print headcase persona.
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It's not like he's a friend but we do run into each other from time to time. He doesn't rant and he's polite to women.
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Different how? It doesn't pay to make assumptions when James Nicoll asserts something. :)

~sled reference
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At parties, he's somewhat distant but polite. He's not rude to women. You get absolutely no hint about his religious beliefs or the female void stuff.

Of course, a lot of that may be due to the way Canadians of a certain background were raised to behave in public. The ranty people handing out flyers at Speakers Corner are generally imports, in my experience.
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I'm glad to hear that - I feel sympathetic towards him as a person, while finding his views generally repulsive. I did get the feeling that the distilled Dave we saw by the end of Cerebus was the equivalent of someone reaching the end of a internet rant they'd been building up towards through a massive flamewar.
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ah, thank you! That makes sense.

~sled reference
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Poor Dave. I mean undoubtedly he's a misogynist and lots more (I could hardly read the actual Cerebus comic by the end, let alone the appalling religious, political and sexist rants in the editorial sections), but it seems to me that he's also batshit crazy in a clinical sense, and has some pretty ingrained psychological problems which he's compounding by his increased seclusion.

OH FUCK wait a sec, what am I saying, "Poor Dave"?! Come off it.
*phew*, close call there.
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If he's nuts and it's a medical problem, then it's no more his fault than if he was in diabetic shock but people thought he was drunk.
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Well that was kindof my "Poor Dave" point, but... do you think we should give him the benefit in this case?
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If you think his problem is medical, yes. If you don't, then no.
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My immediate thought is, "That's nice, dear. Bully for you."
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See, I couldn't help but comment, but that's just me. :)

Von
(Frozen) (Thread)

Googling "define:misogynist":

woman hater (a misanthrope who dislikes women in particular)

Nope, Dave Sim doesn't hate women.

OTOH, Wikipedia has a lot more to say on the subject. "There are many different forms of misogyny. In its most overt expression, a misogynist will openly hate all women simply because they are female."

Again, I think this doesn't describe Sim.

"Other forms of misogyny may be less overt. Some misogynists may simply be prejudiced against all women,"

Prejudiced, I will grant, he is.

"or may hate women who do not fall into one or more acceptable categories."

I think 'hate' would be an overstatement, but I could sympathize with someone arguing the opposite.

"Frequently, the term misogynist is used in a looser sense as a term of derision to describe anyone who holds an unpopular or distasteful view about women as a group."

Well, 'unpopular' is certainly a direct hit.

"As with other terms, the more antipathetic one's position is in regards to misogyny, the larger the number of misogynists and the greater variety of attitudes and behaviors who fall into one's perception of "misogynist." This is, of course, the subject of much controversy and debate with opinions ranging widely as to the extent and breadth of misogyny in society."

In summary, I don't think Sim *is* a misogynist... by strict construction of the word. On the other hand, the popular meaning has clearly drifted to a point where it does include him.
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Excuse me for being somewhat less than a strict constructionist (and being a man, I'm not sure you're entirely qualified to comment on what constitutes actual misogyny in practice, not ever having had it levelled at you and all), but in what way is Sim's general belief that women aren't exactly human beings not essentially misogynist? You must have a vastly different connotational (at least) definition of "hate" than I do. I consider "othering" or considering people to be subhuman a form of hate, which is pretty obviously what Sim has going on.

He's certainly prejudiced, and he's certainly essentialist in his prejudices as so many misogynists are ("all women are X, X is bad/evil/wrong/unlikeable/silly/frivolous, therefore women are..."), and I'm kind of losing your point as to where the bright line is between holding negative essentialist stereotypes about classes of people and hating them. If I said, "All black people are lazy," you'd call me racist. If I said, "All Jews are plotting to take over the world by controlling international finance," you'd say I was anti-semitic. I'm not seeing how holding those kinds of beliefs when applied to women somehow exempts someone from misogyny.
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and being a man, I'm not sure you're entirely qualified to comment on what constitutes actual misogyny in practice

I don't see my gender as relevant here. What I do see as relevant is that I am a native speaker of the english language. When I learned the word misogynist, many years ago, it had not yet acquired the looseness of usage which it now has.

I think of "hate" as an extremely strong word, and one that I reserve for extremely strong positions. I believe it is possible to have prejudice without it extending so far as hate. I will grant that "othering" is a step along a slippery slope that often leads to hate -- but I will not grant that it *must* so lead, or that the two things are identical. I will even grant that "othering" is a bad thing, to be avoided and reviled -- but hatred is much worse.

I am in no way trying to claim that Sim's positions vis-a-vis women are admirable, or even reasonable. My argument here is largely linguistic, though even linguistics has a political element.

I think misogyny (as formerly, formally constructed) is a Bad Thing, and I think it useful to have a word that describes that Bad Thing, so that we can identify and avoid it. I think it weakens the culture when such words get over-extended to cover things which are considerably less bad, and lose much of the force they previously had. [Although I find it regrettable, I am not so foolish as to think that I can prevent it.]

I gather from interviews that Sim has an even more rigid attitude towards language than I do, which is why he takes such offense at being called a misogynist when a dictionary would say he isn't. I *think* that that's a great deal of the point behind this recent letter, though I couldn't swear to it.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Fools! Semantic based arguements is precisely what Sim *wants* you to do!

fridgepunk

2008-05-05 10:54 pm (UTC)

I gather from interviews that Sim has an even more rigid attitude towards language than I do, which is why he takes such offense at being called a misogynist when a dictionary would say he isn't.

What kind of dictionary defines women as soulless voids again? Or, not to be sarcy or to belittle any actual mental health issues Sim really does have, are we talking about dictionarys *actually* speaking to him here?

And as a misanthropist, I object to the notion that misogyny and misanthropy have any connection with each other besides the obvious linguistic one, unless you're defining "misantrhopy" really vaguely and "misogyny" really precisely. Which seems like a fudge really.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Fools! Semantic based arguements is precisely what Sim *wants* you to do!

yduras

2008-05-06 06:32 pm (UTC)

Actually, you're missing a term. It's misanthropy (people), misogyny (women), misandry (men).
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

If your idea of linguistic strictness is that the original definition is the most proper one, then, rather than Googling up a definition, wouldn't it be better to look at what the oldest dictionaries have to say?

Thomas Blount's Glossographia; or, a dictionary interpreting the hard words of whatsoever language, now used in our refined English tongue gives this:

Misogynie (misoginia), the hate or contempt of women.

"Tangent" certainly expresses contempt toward women, so I have no hesitation in identifying Sim as a misogynist in the original, strict sense of the word. You're free to prefer some newfangled, post-1658 definition, of course.
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