james_nicoll: Says it all, really

james_nicoll (

james_nicoll) wrote,
@ 2007-12-04 14:10:00

Says it all, really
Last night on Heroes, we got to see Peter Petrelli and Matt Parkman argue over whether a third party was malevolent or not.

At that moment in time, both Peter and Matt had telepathy. If only there was some way one could use the power to read minds to examine someone's motives...

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	secritcrush 2007-12-04 07:17 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, but as soon as some ambitious soul re-edits the dialogue in that scene it will be full of AWESOME. (Also amusing to note that Parkman did not mind control Kensei who has no defense to it, but Peter who has the exact same power as him.) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	james_nicoll 2007-12-04 07:26 pm UTC (link)
	That's because in the close race to see which of Matt, Peter and Mohinder is the stupidest person on Heroes, Matt will always take the gold. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

viktor_haag
2007-12-04 07:40 pm UTC (link)

Well, as I've said to you before, I don't think Mohinder is stupid, so much as "eastern" (and therefore wise about the ways of fundamentally sunny human existence, but naive about the corrupt nastiness that is American modern life) and "a scientist" (and therefore addle brained and prone to distraction, but brilliant whenever the plot requires it of him).

Petrelli and Parkman, on the other hand, are stupid, but have always been portrayed as such, and so I don't think you can really fault the writers when they portray them as such.

If the show can be faulted, it's for having stereotyped characters that show very little evidence of an ability to change, learn, or mature (except right before they die). But then, this is an ensemble melodrama, so I'm not sure we can really expect of the characters either.

If the plotting were better than we could (presumably) willingly ignore the characters' short-comings. But, unfortunately, Season Two has shown that, no, it's really not much better than typical American TV fare and is starting to depend on the un-believable shortcomings of the characters to propel the plot forward.

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james_nicoll
2007-12-04 07:45 pm UTC (link)

Petrelli and Parkman, on the other hand, are stupid, but have always been portrayed as such, and so I don't think you can really fault the writers when they portray them as such.

Matt is the guy who couldn't figure how to tell if Mr. McEvil from the Primatec company was lying to him, despite using telepathy while the guy was around (although not on McEvil) so I can't disagree with you.

I think there's a reason why Nathan and his mom treat Peter as a lovable idiot and that's because Peter is the Petrelli version of an in-bred collie dog: very pretty, very stupid.

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	james_nicoll 2007-12-04 07:49 pm UTC (link)
	Nathan doesn't tend to rely on his power to get him out of jams, which is a bit unusual for the metahumans on Heroes. Flying creepy emo boy was totally about using flight to deal with life's problems, so it's not just that Nathan got a cool power without much day to day use. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	james_nicoll 2007-12-04 07:53 pm UTC (link)
	Suddenly I am very happy that Matt didn't discover his mind control powers until after his wife left him. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

viktor_haag
2007-12-04 11:20 pm UTC (link)

I'm quickly discovering that there is almost nobody on this show that I care about any more. That was a pretty damn short trip.

The Cheerleader who seemed to be so well-adjusted, has just turned into a typically selfish teenager.

The relentlessly optimistic, and funny, Japanese kook who seemed to have a thumb well-placed on his own moral compass has turned into a bit of dope who's unsure what to do next.

And they wry, politically aware, flying man has turned into a self-flagellating alcoholic.

Ah the halcyon days of Season One.

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viktor_haag
2007-12-04 11:24 pm UTC (link)

Actually, slight retraction.

I like the Haitian. I always have, and I still do.

He's got it going on.

I hope we never find out more about him than we already know, because based on the evidence so far, Kring and the writers will screw it up.

But you just know that he is the only one in the freakin' show that (a) acts like a sensible adult, and (b) actually knows what all these other idiots are up to.

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	viktor_haag 2007-12-04 11:25 pm UTC (link)
	I think someone should pitch a spinoff show called "With Great Power..." that tells the entire story from the Haitian's point of view. That would rock. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	llennhoff 2007-12-06 03:55 am UTC (link)
	But you just know that he is the only one in the freakin' show that (a) acts like a sensible adult... I have a hard time justifying his taking Peter's memories away, especially when he seemed to think he was doing Peter a favor. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	james_nicoll 2007-12-04 11:32 pm UTC (link)
	The relentlessly optimistic, and funny, Japanese kook who seemed to have a thumb well-placed on his own moral compass has turned into a bit of dope who's unsure what to do next. And Ando has been sent back to the cubicles. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	james_nicoll 2007-12-04 07:59 pm UTC (link)
	I can fault the writers for setting things up so that they can rely on idiot plots to make their stories work. A Heroes where eg: Nathan was the power-mimic and Noah was the telepath would be a lot more interesting, I think. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

thespian
2007-12-04 08:19 pm UTC (link)

true, but the idea they've followed has tended to be that the powers reflect the person; ie, Nathan is a high-flying politician, so he...flies. Peter is a caring nurse, so he has what Tim Kring has referred to as 'power empathy'. Etc. (it's not a *great* concept, but it's apparently what it's about; the powers were decided, then the characters created based on that, with the idea being that you can figure out what power they'll have based on the character, if you care to.)

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	schizmatic 2007-12-05 05:34 pm UTC (link)
	But then what does it say to have the dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks cop have the ability to read and influence minds? That's as far away from Parkman's personality as you can get. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	james_nicoll 2007-12-05 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	It's control-freak powers. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	viktor_haag 2007-12-04 11:21 pm UTC (link)
	Agreed. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	dragovianknight 2007-12-04 08:35 pm UTC (link)
	Peter is the Petrelli version of an in-bred collie dog: very pretty, very stupid. That's the best description of Peter I've seen. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	montoya 2007-12-04 08:22 pm UTC (link)
	That is a terrible slur on Mohinder's capability for stupidity. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	viktor_haag 2007-12-04 11:23 pm UTC (link)
	I can fault Mohinder for narrow-mindedness, but I'm not sure I can fault him for stupidity. In that particular trait, he's nowhere near in Parkman's league. Or Peter's. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	phanatic 2007-12-04 11:52 pm UTC (link)
	I don't know, I kinda figure Plague Girl runs away with that one. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	stoutfellow 2007-12-04 08:10 pm UTC (link)
	There was also Peter's difficult and wearing effort to unlock a vault door, when he has the verified ability to walk through walls - and take someone else with him, to boot. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jwgh 2007-12-04 08:15 pm UTC (link)
	He can also teleport. I think he just loses track of what all his powers are sometimes. (He's got to have super-hearing and the ability to learn new information quickly, right?) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	james_nicoll 2007-12-04 08:21 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think he can mimic Sylar's powers. My working for model is that Peter is limited by his own cognitive abilities and so any power dependent on the user being brighter than a box of rocks won't work for him, for the same reason you can't install Windows NT on a Commodore 64. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	jwgh 2007-12-04 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	He got TK from Sylar, who got it from his first victim, right? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	james_nicoll 2007-12-04 08:26 pm UTC (link)
	Huh. Yeah, he did. Well, maybe he can duplicate the physical powers but I don't think he can master the intelligence-based ones. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

agrumer
2007-12-04 09:46 pm UTC (link)

Or maybe he can only dupe one of Sylar's powers if Sylar actually uses it in his presence.

I haven't seen any of the second season yet (and everyone tells me I'm better off that way), but wasn't it implied when Peter was learning how to use his powers that the process of turning a power on is emotionally based? That could make turning his powers on and off a bit complicated.

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	viktor_haag 2007-12-04 11:27 pm UTC (link)
	Second season? What second season? There is no second season! ::balloon ball balloon ball balloon ball:: (Reply to this) (Parent)

	cheshyre 2007-12-04 08:28 pm UTC (link)
	I wonder if Peter unknowingly absorbed the Haitian's powers, which is why he has a selective memory of which powers he has (or maybe they just randomly become disabled?) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	viktor_haag 2007-12-04 11:28 pm UTC (link)
	Ha! That's cute. It could explain Peter's increasing thickness, as well. The Haitian's powers are gradually destroying the rudimentary intelligence he began the show with. Slowly. Agonizingly slowly. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	burger_eater 2007-12-05 07:46 am UTC (link)
	Does he still have invisibility? Can he make a second person invisible? He could have just sneaked into the complex... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	llennhoff 2007-12-07 04:00 pm UTC (link)
	IIRC alternate future Peter and Hiro launched their attack on [something] in normal time despite Hiro's offer to freeze time because a.f.Peter hadn't had a good fight in a while. Sneaking does not seem to be part of Peter's M.O. (Reply to this) (Parent)

montoya
2007-12-04 08:23 pm UTC (link)

See, I look at that as a genre convention. I mean, how many fights have Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four gotten in with each other, despite decades of acquaintance? (And I don't mean principled fights like Civil War, I mean, "Hey, there's Spider-Man by a robbed jewelry store; why is he stealing? Get him!")

When you're a superhero, you're pretty much obliged to go in powers blazing and only figure it out after a few bruises.

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	oldsma 2007-12-04 08:44 pm UTC (link)
	I have stopped watching. One week, I was stalling clicking over to NBC because I knew it would be an ordeal. And then it came to me: I don't have to watch it. Now I am free! It makes me sad to feel that way, but not sad enough to watch Maya and her brother race to arrive in time for the finals of the stupid contest. MAO (Reply to this) (Thread)

james_nicoll
2007-12-04 09:01 pm UTC (link)

I think you may have a lot of company. I base this on the fact that I was expecting something from last week or the week before to attract a lot of outraged commentary on LJ but it didn't (I am being vague because I can't recall what it was). Either people's capacity to be outraged has been saturated or people are not watching. I am guessing the first option is less likely.

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	mmcirvin 2007-12-05 02:12 am UTC (link)
	I haven't watched it after the first two or three episodes of season two. Season one had just enough cleverness that I could bear the show's many glaring flaws. But it just isn't worth it any more. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	viktor_haag 2007-12-04 11:29 pm UTC (link)
	We stared out PVRing this show, and watching it the same night. Then we slipped to "we'll watch it tomorrow; we're tired now." Then, we noticed that we were "saving it up for later in the week when we could more conveniently watch it". It's amazing how a PVR will enhance your ability to actually act on your rudimentary sense of taste. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	roseembolism 2007-12-04 11:50 pm UTC (link)
	Wasn't it true that the producers apologized for this season? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mjlayman 2007-12-05 01:46 am UTC (link)
	It's slipped to where I watch it while I'm online or reading the paper. What I taped last night and watched later was the two-hour The Closer special. I've been taping Tin Man on the lesser VCR. If it's awful, I can just rewind. (Reply to this) (Parent)

arielstarshadow
2007-12-04 08:56 pm UTC (link)

Has it been established in this 'verse that telepathy is a sure-fire way of detecting evil - and, in fact, what telepathy is capable of? In other words, how foolproof is it, and how deep does it go?

If it's more like a non-verbal talky box, then maybe they wouldn't be able to tell the motives. Meaning it's used for silent communication - my mind speaks something to your mind, and can "hear" (aka read) your response...but that doesn't give me the ability to tell whether your response is truthful or not, nor does it give me the ability to go beyond the response to the motives and emotions behind it.

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	james_nicoll 2007-12-04 08:59 pm UTC (link)
	It's been used to rip information out of people's minds that the thinker didn't want to share. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	arielstarshadow 2007-12-05 12:41 am UTC (link)
	That definitely points to its power - but doesn't necessarily speak to its ability to judge veracity. I don't watch Heroes, that's why I was asking. The "mind" gifts have always seemed hard for writers to handle. One only has to take a look at Jean Grey to know that's true. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	arielstarshadow 2007-12-05 12:42 am UTC (link)
	And that sounds all grouchy, and it's not meant to be. Feh. My last comment was a piss-poor way of saying that 1) you are likely right, the writers (and hence the characters) are idiots. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sargent 2007-12-04 09:28 pm UTC (link)
	Peter had the same issue last week involving an argument about someone being evil and malicious or not. My working hypothesis is that, the more kick-ass your ability, the dumber you'll be in using it. C.f. how Hiro approached his task during the entire episode. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	james_nicoll 2007-12-04 09:38 pm UTC (link)
	Hiro is handicapped by the model he is using (American superhero comics). It's a sad thing but Bill and Ted got more use out of fixed time travel than Hiro does. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	viktor_haag 2007-12-04 11:30 pm UTC (link)
	You've just spoiled the plot for episode 2.12: Hiro takes a day off from foiling evil and watches Bill and Ted. After that, Tim promises that the series will "change dramatically". (Reply to this) (Parent)

	tiferet 2007-12-05 07:39 am UTC (link)
	It's very simple. If Nathan dies, I am never watching this show again. (Reply to this)

	martin_wisse 2007-12-05 12:42 pm UTC (link)
	Third parties aren't malevolent, just useless and you'll only throw your vote away. (Reply to this)

schizmatic
2007-12-05 05:46 pm UTC (link)

Suppose that you have spent all of your gaming days playing a Fighter. Suppose that later you wind up playing a cleric. Your ability to think of what spells might be useful, how to mix and match, &c. is going to be compromised and you're going to wind up doing a lot of brute force applications to bash things with help from the magic rather than elegant solutions involved in application of your spells.

Likewise, most of the main characters have still only had their powers for < a year or so. They haven't quite figured out the implications of all of them. Sylar and Peter especially tend to throw them around pell mell because they haven't actually sat down and figured out how to employ their powers strategically. I mean, Sylar has a preternatural memory, the ability to see the future and ability to liquefy objects at a touch but still tends to mainly use his telekinesis and sometimes his nuclear abilities.

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